Leadership in Medicine with Dr. Jacqueline Torti

What does character have to do with leadership in medicine—and why are competencies alone no longer enough?

Dr. Jacqueline Torti, assistant professor in the Department of Medicine at Western University, joins Corey for a grounded conversation on character-based leadership in health professions education. She explores how character shows up in small, often unseen moments that shape trust, teamwork, and patient care.

A central focus of the episode is Jacqueline’s work leading a year-long character-based leadership course for medical residents—later expanded to early-career physicians due to overwhelming demand. She shares why residents were craving space, psychological safety, and community, how the course created meaningful connection in fast-paced clinical environments, and what surprised her most when studying its impact. 

🧠 What you’ll hear:
 🔥 Why character elevates clinical competence rather than competing with it
 🏥 How a year-long character-based leadership course created connection, reflection, and demand across medical training
 🤝 What research revealed about community and belonging as key outcomes of character development
 ⚖️ How Jacqueline responds to skepticism and pushback around character in medicine
 ❤️ Personal reflections on parenting, habituation, and sustaining character across contexts

Resources
• Sultan et al. (2019). Leadership development in postgraduate medical education: a systematic review of the literature. Academic Medicine, 94(3), 440-449. (https://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/abstract/2019/03000/leadership_development_in_postgraduate_medical.37.aspx)

•  Torti et al. (2022). Perspectives on physician leadership: the role of character‐based leadership in medicine. Medical Education, 56(12), 1184-1193. (https://asmepublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/medu.14875)

•  Leader Character Framework with Culture, Virtues, and Vices (https://virtuositycharacter.ca/organization/storage_production_6e293

About Virtuosity

• Website (https://virtuositycharacter.ca/)
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Host, Dr Corey Crossan (https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreycrossan/), is a research and teaching fellow at The Oxford Character Project where she develops and facilitates character development programs for students, industry, and university partners. Corey’s love for elite performance developed as she competed in top-level athletics for most of her life, highlighted by competing as a NCAA Division 1 athlete. Corey translated her understanding of elite performance into a passion for helping individuals and organizations develop sustained excellence. She is also the co-founder of Virtuosity Character, a mobile software application created to support the daily, deliberate practice of character-based leadership development.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome
• 2:05 Introduction to Jacqueline Torti
• 2:59 Character Matters
• 6:00 Character, Medicine, and the Limits of Competency-Based Training
• 11:56 Building a Year-Long Character-Based Leadership Course for Medical Residents
• 15:48 Moral Dissonance, Community, and Psychological Safety in Medicine
• 21:02 Pushback, Skepticism, and Why Character Elevates Competence
• 27:13 Experiencing the Virtuosity Program and Making Character Habitual
• 30:56 Courage, Habituation, and Everyday Leadership in Medicine
• 35:16 Character Quotient
• 45:03 Bye for Now

Transcript

Corey Crossan [00.00.08]
Every choice builds character. On the Virtuosity podcast, we explore how to make everyday a step toward excellence. I'm Corey, your host and co-founder of Virtuosity.

My journey into character development began in sport, where I discovered that strengthening my character didn't just improve my performance. It transformed my entire life. Since then, I've been gripped with understanding how we can intentionally build character to feel both personal and professional success at Virtuosity.

We believe characters like a muscle. It needs consistent training. That's why we've built a research based system that acts as your character gym making character development practical, scalable, and accessible even within the largest organizations.

On this podcast, we sit down with participants from our flagship Virtuosity program, where individuals commit to a full year of daily character development powered by Virtuosity. Our guests will share why character matters to them, how they're applying it in their personal and professional lives, and the insights they've gained along the way.

We hope these conversations challenge, inspire, and equip you with new ways to integrate character into your own journey. Subscribe to stay up to date with our weekly episodes and if something resonates. Share it with your friends and colleagues.

Ready to start your own Virtuosity journey? Download the Virtuosity Character app or visit Virtuosity Character to learn more. Now let's dive into today's episode.

Hello everyone, and welcome to the 16th episode of the Virtuosity Podcast. If you're new, I encourage you to check out our launch episode with Mary Crossan for a powerful introduction to this series.

Today, we're thrilled to welcome Dr. Jacqueline Torti as our guest. Dr. Torti is an assistant professor in the Department of Medicine with a cross appointment in anatomy and cell biology and a scientist at the centre for education, Research and Innovation at the Schulich School of Medicine and Dentistry at Western University.

Dr. Torti is an interdisciplinary scholar specializing in health professions education and health sciences, with a PhD in Public Health Sciences from the University of Alberta. Her academic foundation includes a Master of Arts in Applied Health Sciences and a Bachelor of Arts in Physical Education from Brock University.

Dr. Torti’s research spans socio cultural dimensions of health and wellness, professional identity, character based leadership, and interprofessional teamwork. Her research focuses on the psychosocial aspects of health care professionals learning and practice environments, exploring how character influences teamwork, well-being, and ultimately, patient care.

All right. Well, welcome, Jacqueline, to the Virtuosity Podcast. And the first question I ask all of our guests is, why does character matter to you?

Jacqueline Torti [00.02.59]
Well, thanks so much, Corey. I really appreciate the offer to come onto the podcast and be a part of the series. It's really, really nice to be here.

I thought about this question a lot. Much like the other guests on the podcast, it's such a big question, and I think it could be answered in so many different ways. And honestly, I think maybe depending on the day or the context or what have been sitting with at the time, I might answer a little bit differently each time. But I've been reflecting on it quite a bit lately, knowing that the question was coming and being part of the virtuosity program, and so here's where I've landed.

Character matters to me, because for me, it really sits at the intersection of who we are and how we show up when it actually counts. So not only the values that we espouse, but actually enact in our day to day encounters.

So, in my work in medicine and medical education, I've seen again and again that competencies alone are not enough. What really shapes trust and safety and care is how people act in the small, kind of often unseen moments.

It's how we listen, how we respond, how we exemplify vulnerability really about, like how we treat others and ourselves when no one else is watching. On a personal level, my late mother was someone who really exemplified character in her life.

She was courageous, very resilient, compassionate, kind, caring. And so much of what I've taken up in my life and is a result of the role modeling that she's provided to me.

And now, as a parent of myself, I have a five-year-old and a three-year-old. It matters to me much more in a personal way.

I think about the type of role model that I want to be for my children. I'm not someone who is perfect or always right, but I am someone who does try to act with courage, with humility, and with compassion, especially in times that it's difficult.

So for me, character is really about the type of legacy that we want to leave behind, and it's what we pass on. Not with our words, but with our gestures and our presence in our lives.

Corey Crossan [00.05.18]
Oh, that's so beautiful. And I love that the personal and the professional side of things. And you had actually indicated that the personal is even more important to you. And I think that's always such an interesting one.

And especially around parenting, like anyone that has kids really gets that character matters and they see it mirrored in their kids. And so I always find it really interesting when we are doing programming to help people figure out what is that specific why for them, even if it is in a professional development setting, it could really be gripping them from a personal standpoint.

So it's really, really cool to see that that's been the case for you. So you have been doing a lot of work on the professional side, bringing character into the the health professions. Can you share more about what you have been doing and how that's been been going, whether it's received well? Some of the kind of opportunities coming out of that. So yeah, just tell us a little bit about what you've been doing.

Jacqueline Torti [00.06.14]
Yeah. For sure. So for some further context, I'm situated in health professions education. And so a lot of my program of research and the work that I do is really trying to embed character and character based leadership into health professions education more broadly. And a lot of this really stems from the competencies that are required in health professions, looking in particular at physicians.

There's a national governing body, the Royal College of Physicians and surgeons of Canada, and they have what they call the can meds rules. And these outline all of the key roles that physicians are expected to play in order to be considered competent.

And the canned meds rules have been around for almost 30 years now. But about 15 years ago or so, they made a change to one of the roles, and it's been the only change to the name of a role in its history.

And they shift the role of manager to leader. And I thought this was really fascinating and really interesting because in the document that accompanied this change, they talk a lot about leadership being a disposition and not necessarily about a position or a title.

And so this really invited us to kind of think quite critically about some of the competencies necessary to meet modern health care needs, and really pushed us to think about elevating leadership alongside some of those other competencies that are required.

And so with that, we've been trying to engage in both some empirical research in the field, but also in some education and training around things. So some of the work that I've done, we started with a systematic review looking at leadership training in postgraduate medical education or residency programs.

And we did this kind of at an international scope, and we just wanted to see what was out there in terms of residency training. What did it look like, particularly for leadership?

There wasn't actually a whole lot out there that did exist. And a quick summary, a lot of what did exist was focused on that managerial training.

So it focused on key metrics and competencies for management. Time management, business, financial management, those sorts of things.

But very little actual articulation of leadership qualities beyond managerial skill sets. And in addition to that, a lot of the leadership training and interventions that did exist did not actually have any sort of empirical or conceptual framework that was guiding the leadership intervention.

And so we thought, well, there's the character based leadership model. It is an empirical conceptual framework backed by science, and it embeds elements of character.

So it moves beyond those managerial skills to really focus on developing individuals as well. And so we thought, well, let's try this in our residency program.
So as mentioned in the intro, I'm situated at Schulich, which is part of Schulich School of Medicine and Dentistry at Western University. And so I have an amazing team including Dr. Wael Haddara and Dr. Nabil Sultan.

And we worked together collectively based on some of the work being done at Ivey and in collaboration with Mary Crossan, to put together a character based leadership course for residents. And so we offered it to residents.

We first offered it in 2022, and it was offered to residents across all years and all specialty programs. And we had about 40 residents enroll in the course, and we ran the course for a full year.

And the purpose of the course was really to instill those character based leadership principles and values. To learn about them, to spend time collectively as a community, working together on developing them and reflecting on them as part of the practice.

And so this course was really, really successful, at least in our eyes. We had a great experience, as did the participants.

There was a math even there. And then when I came back, we decided, let's do this again for another offering.

And the course had caught the interest of what's called continuing professional development here at Schulich, which is professional development and training geared towards physicians already in practice. And so we thought, well, let's do a co offering of this between residents and early career faculty.

So physicians within their first five years of practice. And so we opened up registration and faculty recruitment sold out within about a day.

Sold out meaning like registration just filled up. We don't charge for the course itself, but we just had a few residents at that point enroll.

And then we thought, you know what? If there's such a need and desire for this amongst early career physicians, why not have an exclusive offering for them and open up more space?

So that's what we did. So we're a few months in to this course.

It started in September and a much along the lines of the same principles. It's a year long, and it's really meant to establish a bit of connection and community with one another in an opportunity to learn about character based leadership and really reflect on it.

So that's some of the ways that we're working on instilling an embedding character in our residency program and our and our community more broadly here.

Corey Crossan [00.11.31]
That is so interesting to hear. The big take up of this and the interest in it. And could you share a little bit more about exactly how that one year program looks like? How many sessions do you have?

What do the sessions look like? And perhaps a little bit like why you think people are so interested in it?

I will ask you a little bit more about like what's the impact. But why do you think there's such an appetite for this?

Jacqueline Torti [00.11.56]
Yeah, I think it's such a unique opportunity. One of the pieces of reflection that we got from the participants in the first enrollment, so from the residents, was that in the clinical learning environment, there is not the time, nor the space, nor the psychological safety to engage in these types of conversations.

It is extremely fast paced. Limited time, limited resources, limited team members.
And so a lot of what happens in the clinical context is very much focused on clinical domains. And so there's not just the time or the space to have these types of conversations.

So the individuals in the first enrollment of the course really reflected that. This opened up the space to have conversations that they were really longing to have, but were either fearful to raise, they didn't feel were appropriate, or they worried about how they might be perceived.

So I think that's also why it may be true interest to the early career faculty as well. Being in practice and being new as an independent practicing physician, of course, you're working collectively within a health care team, but you're kind of in a different place where you're no longer a learner and look to as a faculty or a mentor in those spaces.

And so having again, that safe space to do this becomes a little bit tricky. So the course itself, it runs for a full year and we gather about every six weeks or about two hours, with the intention of focusing.

We have an introductory session and a concluding session. And then each of the following focuses on two somewhat complementary character dimensions. And so what we do is we take the time to define those dimensions and to go over the different elements of the dimensions. Walk through kind of the virtues and vices associated with them, what it looks like in excess or in absence.

And then we spend some time exploring the nets or examples of what this looks like in medicine. And then really we just give the floor to the class, to the participants, to the mentors enrolled in the course, to really have an opportunity to have some meaningful conversations around that.

And then what we do is we ask participants to kind of take what they've learned and hold that as they move back into clinical practice over the next six weeks. And then to come back to the next session reflecting on what they've learned with keeping those two particular dimensions in mind moving forward.

We do have some really dedicated mentors as part of the course as well. So these are sometimes self-selected individuals that just say, hey, I'd love to support the course and be a part of this.

Let me know how I can help. And others have very much been pointed to us from members of the medical community to say, this person exemplifies character and all that they do.

They would be an amazing person to help support. And they really act as a support.

So we've organized the course into some small groups. And those small groups each have a mentor and they get together with the class kind of outside of class time, if needed, to kind of support, provide some mentorship and guidance around the dimensions as we move through.

Corey Crossan [00.15.19]
It seems like that connection piece seems to be such an important foundation for any character development program, and having that space to have conversations about these things that we don't typically have opportunity to chat about.

And so some of the impacts that you're seeing. Have you done any research on it or if not, what are the types of kind of feedback points that you're getting from participants. So yeah, what the general impact of the efforts that you're doing.

Jacqueline Torti [00.15.48]
Yeah. So the first time we offered the course with residents, we did embed some scholarship around the course as well.

So, I'm a qualitative researcher by training. And so that's the type of work that we engaged in. So we were quite interested in this notion of moral dissonance for moral misalignment, essentially to say that in some spaces, the intentions that individuals hold and had moving into a career, things like compassion and humility and temperance may not be the values that are part of the culture or the norm that they're now embedded within.

And this is especially true with physicians, I think. Most of them have a sense of deep compassion and humanity.

They get into the profession because they truly, genuinely care about people. They want to help.

They want to make a difference. And then when they're met with system constraints, whether it be limited time, limited resources, particular policies, they're not able to fully enact those values in the same way that they had maybe thought they might when they first started studying in the field.

And so our idea was like, can character potentially serve as a protective function to this? Is there a way that character can help promote and foster resilience to those moral tensions or that moral dissonance that might exist?

And so what we did is we conducted individual interviews with both the resident participants, as well as the mentors that were part of the course, both at the very beginning of the course, to kind of explore this notion of moral dissonance. And then towards the very end of the course to figure out, you know, after engaging in this year long course and being part of this community, how has it potentially impacted your sense of resilience and well-being?

Long story short, a lot happens in a year. So participants were unable to determine, rightly so, whether or not the course had facilitated greater resilience or an improved sense of well-being among them.

There's just too many other discerning factors that could potentially have played a role. So it was really hard for them to actually articulate whether or not developing and strengthening their character, improve those things.

But what we did learn was collectively, and universally amongst all participants in the course, the sense of community and connectedness that it created was what helped them through. And so what we took away from that is, again, this just creates such a unique offering in such a unique space to have the opportunity to really engage in explicit conversations around these things.

Develop connections and relationships with like minded people who truly value and carry about these things as well, and who really want to see this embedded and fostered in the culture of medicine.

And so although we weren't able to determine our original research question was like, you know, does this improve health and resiliency among residents. But what it did do was foster a sense of community and connection, which they believed really improved their experiences.

So a lot of the did talk about how, you know, after focusing on developing their courage or developing their humility, they did find ways to embed that into their day to day practice. Or there were moments where they noticed that being challenged and they could name it and have reflections and conversations around it.

So they certainly developed their character along the process. They developed a sense of community as well. And so we see that as a huge success to the course.

Corey Crossan [00.19.34]
That's so cool. What an interesting research question around, you know, can character buffer against this.

And I know it's not just true in medicine, but in a lot of professions. I remember working with some law students, and they also have a lot of empathy, a lot of humanity, and then they get into their profession and system constraints as well. So I'm sure this is quite generalizable to a lot of different professions. And you see it really strongly in the medical field.

And there is some other research that does show that character does buffer against this. So it would be interesting to keep looking at perhaps potential future programs to see if you can get a little bit more data on that.

But very interesting. And the community piece, it's such a powerful piece.
And I think it's because the nature of character and the content of character, it creates such meaningful conversations. And so that's really terrific that you did find that piece.

In terms of the challenges associated with bringing this in, it sounds like it's been pretty positive and it's gone pretty well. But I can't imagine that perhaps there are some challenges.

And in particular in the medical field and some other professional domains, there is such a heavy focus on competencies that sometimes it doesn't feel like there's a place for character. Have you experienced that at all?

And you know whether you have or not, what are some other the other challenges that you've come against?

Jacqueline Torti [00.21.02]
Mhm. Yeah. I've definitely had some pushback on trying to embed in thinking about how character can really be promoted in medicine.

I'll give you two examples of that. And then I can walk through my best attempt at remedying that negativity.

So one example being one of the research papers that I was involved with. We were interviewing physicians as well as broader members of the health care team and really wanted to understand from their perspective what made an effective physician leader.

And so, without necessarily prompting on character at first, people automatically were drew to drawn to, excuse me, individuals sense of humility, humanity.
It was about their compassion. It was about their ability to listen, to understand, to empathize.

And so we really did see strengths of character coming through in that. But there was one individual that we interviewed in particular, a physician who was quite firm in his belief that character didn't matter when it came to leadership.
That, you know, sure, it's a nice add on if you have it, but it's not essential. What really matters for physicians is that clinical competence and that clinical skill set, that's what makes a good physician.

And so that just kind of reminded us that it's not necessarily a universally accepted thing. And we are going to encounter individuals who might not potentially see its value.

And I'll give another example of this. I was giving a presentation as a visiting scholar, talking a little bit about some of my work, my program of research situated around character and leadership and medicine.

And I was presenting in particular on character based leadership to a broad academic audience. And during the presentation, one member said, why are you wasting your time on this?

The program of research, excuse my language, is bullshit. No one cares about this.
It can't be developed. You're really wasting your time.

And so it's not an uncommon encounter to be met with individuals who don't necessarily see the value of this work. But then I go back to the work of Mary and colleagues, who had really talked about this character incompetence entanglement, and kind of reminded that this is not to replace those clinical competencies.

Yes, those are absolutely necessary to be a good physician and need to have that clinical knowledge, that clinical skill set, that's imperative to good patient care, of course. But imagine how much those clinical competencies could be elevated if they were mapped alongside character.

And so within a clinical learning environment, I give the example of a physician. So a picture, a surgeon, you know, the most skilled surgeon you could imagine, the absolute precise technique.

Precision is like insurmountable. They are the top in their field. They know what they're doing. They're incredibly talented. Like this is an individual with clinical competence. Now imagine if that surgeon was not humble.

Imagine if they couldn't collaborate. If they had no sense of compassion or empathy. Like, what would that look like for their teammates, for any medical learners on their team, for the patients and the families themselves? Now imagine that same individual with those same clinical competencies.

But they exemplified humility. They showed compassion and empathy towards the patient and the family.

They were humble. They could collaborate effectively.

So I really tried to speak to the fact that this isn't a replacement of those clinical competencies in medicine, where competency by design, it's embedded into the fabric of medical education here in Canada. But really it's about elevating those competencies alongside character and really trying to bring it into the conversation.

So for the most part, I see perceived really optimistic, warm responses about the nature of this and how important it is and how little it's actually discussed explicitly, and that it's so nice to spend the time really working towards this. But it is also not that uncommon that you do get that negativity or that pushback.
And so I really try to sell this on it's not a replacement of, but in addition to.

Corey Crossan [00.25.46]
Yeah, it's really interesting like in the medical field and as well as other fields like engineering, like the professional fields, I found that the work that Mary has been doing has really been focusing on judgment and decision making.

And I found that to be really effective. There's so many different applications to character, and that judgment and decision making does seem to be really effective in the medical profession.

And it's not just about the surgeon, the example that you gave around like their judgment and decision making. But as you started to get to like, what's the culture they're creating around them, if they don't have humility, are they creating a culture where the people working with them can actually speak up if they've made a mistake?

And so you start to see this ripple effect, that it really does matter, not just for individual decision making, but the culture that they're creating. And so I think continuing to, you know, for any of the people pushing back to work that problem and continue showing all the different types of impacts it can make, it does make a big difference.

And so you've been part of the virtuosity program now for pretty much a year now. I'm looking it's December, but you had been in the character space for quite a while before then.

Before I was going to get into asking you about how you could see it being leveraged as a tool in the health professions, but could you share a little bit more about the experience for you? How has the experience been and what's the impact it's had on you personally?

Jacqueline Torti [00.27.13]
It's such a great question. I think when I was reflecting on this there, you know, it's been amazing.

First of all, I'm so grateful for the opportunity to have been enrolled in the program and have met all of these amazing people from across the globe who are also in the program.

For me, two things really stood out. I had been in the character space for some time now, but I don't know that it was, for me, as habitual as it could be.
And so the first thing that really stood out to me in the program was that it really made it habitual. When you think about it on a daily basis, often you know more than daily.

It is part of the work that I do. So I am kind of constantly thinking about it. When I'm at work, it's the lens through which I see most of my research. But this just really afforded the opportunity to not only engage with it in the work that I do, but to think about its impact on my personal life in addition to my professional life, and to really just have the time and space to reflect on it, too.

I think that's the other thing. I'm so focused on doing and embedding and being.
And sometimes you forget to take a step back and be quite reflective. So through that reflection, I feel like I've grown a lot in the program.

Maybe much more so than I had originally anticipated. But I'm also, through the program, recognized that I have still a ton of growth to do again, maybe a lot more than I initially realized.

So yeah, the first thing making it habitual has just been such a nice way to truly reflect on its day to day impact, how it shaped me as an individual, and both the growth that I've had in the trajectory that I could see.

And then the other thing is, I'm in my work that I do, I'm one small person embedded in a education research center in a massive institution amongst a huge field.

And so not everyone is aware of or attuned to character in the same ways that I am in the work that I do. And it was so nice to be part of the virtuosity community and to see so many other people taking this work so seriously, both in their personal lives.

But to hear about the range of ways it's been adapted and applied across professional contexts, you know, internationally and around the globe.

So it was humbling but also incredibly inspiring to like, see the work that's being done and the community that it can foster.

So for me, it was kind of this shared sense of purpose, a shared sense of identity. Like, you're not in this alone.

There's an entire group of people of very well accomplished people out there who believe this matter, too, and are on the same page as you. So that made a huge difference.

Corey Crossan [00.30.14]
It does. It does really fuel the mission. I feel like every single time we get together and you see people excited and all the things that they're doing, it fuels you and then it gives you ideas to like.

It really is amazing. All the different things people are doing and innovating.
Like there's so much innovation happening and that can really inspire us to bring character into what we're doing and really kind of comprehensive and in new ways.

And so, you talked a lot about like this more kind of habituation piece. Curious.
After going through the program, what are there any kind of inspirations you're taking away in terms of embedding character more intentionally into the health professions, what are you taking away from this?

Jacqueline Torti [00.30.56]
Yeah, I think the idea is that the habitual nature of it is so important. And I think often, you know, when we hear stories about character in medicine or we think about acts of courage or acts of humility, they tend to stand out as these like big, bold, extravagant one time moments.

But this has really instilled in me that those big time, extravagant, one time moments are really built on the foundation of our day to day actions.

And so I think the goal of this is, is to learn from it and to be able to embed it in some of the research and work that I do.

And I can give you a recent example. We were just finishing up a study.
It's a narrative research study which essentially explores individuals stories and anecdotes about a lived experience. And we really wanted to explore a physician's experiences of acts of courage and medicine.

And so when I first approached this research, you know, the team were expecting these big extravagant stories of, like, this bold bravery and these heroic acts that individuals had engaged in.

And, you know, much to my surprise, within the data, you know, yeah, there were a few of those in there, you know, fascinating stories.

But for some, like, courage was a day to day thing. They're an emergency physician. They bring courage to their work every single day that they show up to the emergency room.

For others, courage was much more about reflection and actually taking the courage to sit back, reflect on what had happened and to have the courage to have that introspection and that opportunity for growth.

For some, you know, courage was inaction, which was quite interesting. It's not always about acting, but sometimes it's the courage of not saying something, of holding back.

And so through this work, we just realized all of the different but also meaningful ways that courage can be taken up in practice and medicine.

And so I think this, again, just brings us back to that habituation piece and that it's recognizing that, yes, there are those big moments, but those big moments are shaped by our day to day interactions.

And so to see it in my own personal life, but to also see it now in some of the data that we have through the research that we're doing is really fascinating.

Corey Crossan [00.33.22]
I love that narrative. It's so interesting. And we just did the courage session last month, and I do. I love this idea that these virtues show up in such different ways.
And, you know, you talked about action versus inaction. One of the themes that we talked a lot about in the last session was that I think a lot of times we go through our day and we don't realize how much courage it takes for people to do the things that we see them do every day.

And it's actually really inspiring when people do open up and share how they are practicing courage, because then it helps you be more inspired by the daily acts of courage, and then it inspires you to do it.

And so these stories are have they been published yet? Because I'm really looking forward to reading them.

Jacqueline Torti [00.34.08]
Thank you. Not yet. Manuscript in progress. So hopefully soon.

Corey Crossan [00.34.10]
Yeah. Oh that's just yeah. It's amazing. I think we need to do, you need to do one of those for all the dimensions around, right?

Jacqueline Torti [00.34.18]
Yeah. Amazing.

Corey Crossan [00.34.19]
Yeah. So and I think this habituation piece too is. Paying. It kind of opens up your world to see the virtues in different ways too.

It gives a lot more depth. So really, really interesting stuff that you're doing.

So as we are winding down, the question that I typically ask all of our guests as we are getting closer to the end here is around the character quotient.

And so for the listeners that aren't aware of the character quotient, it's essentially a set of ten questions that Mary and I put together, which helps you assess the degree to which you're kind of embedding character into your life.

And so it has four questions around your character awareness for questions around your character development, and two questions around your character application into your organization.

So did you get a chance to do it? And if you did? Could you tell us a little bit more about how that went for you? Perhaps areas that you're proud of are areas that you want to work on a little bit more?

Jacqueline Torti [00.35.16]
Yeah. So I did it once before and I redid it recently, so I was attuned to it for this conversation.

And I scored a 71, so not as high as some of the people, but still not bad I think in terms of, like where I see a lot of pride in what I've been able to accomplish through character is around this awareness.

And so I scored quite high on being good at identifying both character in myself and in others.

I think being attuned to the leader character framework and the different dimensions and having that explicit language has really helped to shape that.
You know, I talk about it in my day to day work and people know it's my area of focus. And so it's quite fascinating actually seeing those around me also being able to identify and pick up on it.

And so, you know, people will send me an article or a podcast or just share a story and say, you might find this really fascinating.

This is so much like humility in the character model. Or someone might say to me, oh my gosh, there's I have to tell you something, I was so courageous the other day, and I think you'll be so proud.

And so I think it's just it's great to be able to be explicit about character in the conversations that we have. And so that was definitely an area of strength.
I certainly have areas of challenges too. One in particular that I'm really working on is that my character is not conditional on my context.

This one was so tricky for me and something that I'm still struggling with and developing.

And I can give you some personal examples too. So when it comes to character, I score quite highly on temperance.

I tend to be known as the calm, the relatively collective individual. You know, I'm very tempered, relatively patient.

And I'm by myself really low on courage going into particular situations. I will often lack confidence.

You know, being a PhD trained scientists in a medical discipline and focusing on character when the whole field is on competencies, it's easy to kind of feel sometimes like you lack that confidence going in.

And so that's kind of where I started. And then my kids came along. And then I realized, you know, maybe I've actually not been pushed on my temperance enough, or pressured enough on my temperance enough to recognize that I've got some vices there.

So example being, you know, I'm I typically am calm and collected. And then sometimes if my kids, I really found myself losing my patience or my temper or raising my voice.

And it's never my intention to do so, but I catch myself in the moment doing it.
And then I think to myself, you know, maybe I'm not as tempered as an individual as I think so.

Sure, within my work in professional life, I've got that, and I'm good at that, and I'm known for that. But it hasn't always been consistent across contexts.

And in the same way, I'm also learning a lot about my courage. You know, having kids is an act of courage.

You know, they're amazing and incredible and you learn so much from them. But there's also really terrifying moments when they're sick or when they're ill or when they ask hard questions.

And through that process, you know, I realize. Maybe I'm more courageous than I think.

You know, I've exemplified a lot of resilience here. We got through this experience together. I'm out the other side. And so it's kind of had this initially this very challenging confrontation of like I'm so inconsistent in these spaces.

But on kind of the flip side, it's also made me realize in these other spaces in which it's not typically applied, I actually have strengths that maybe I didn't recognize.

And so I'm working really hard to find that balance, to recognize when it is inconsistently applied or different.

For the most part, I do find it across like the professional context versus my personal life and my family life, but I'm learning a lot through that process.

And so that's where I still feel I have a lot of room and opportunity for growth.
But knowing the importance of ensuring that that consistency is there when the times are challenging or difficult is what really motivates me to want to continue to improve that.

Corey Crossan [00.40.01]
Well, I definitely resonate with that. That's the item that I struggle with most on the character quotient as well.

So my lowest score and I honestly think like who doesn't. Like if they don't struggle with that one, then they need to be teaching us all their secrets.
Because to have strong character across all contexts and under stress is such a hard thing.

And you know, this being through the Virtuosity Program.

But for those that haven't, we talk about five stages of development, starting with discovering your character, then learning how to activate it, strengthen, connect it to the other dimensions in that fifth level is about sustaining it across context and under stress.

And that is the challenge. And it's really hard, but definitely the opportunity and the goal so that we can buffer against challenging context or amplify when we're in conducive context.

But I just wanted to go back to your some of your points around courage and temperance, because as you were talking about courage and feeling like you didn't have a lot of it, being in the space of, you know, having a PhD in the medical field and focusing on character versus competence, those things in themselves, to me, speak a lot of courage.

The fact that you chose to go against the stream so much.
And so I think sometimes it's about sharing these things with other people and not noticing, like you were saying, like, oh wow, I actually have a lot more of this than I thought.

And so it can be so powerful, even just to share and get feedback from other people about how they see you.

And in terms of the temperance piece, I can certainly relate as well where I thought I had a lot of temperance. And then you meet certain people perhaps too, for you, it's your kids.

For me, it's other people. And they really start to challenge you. And I think it's a good reminder too, that. You know, Mary talks. She uses the analogy that it's easy to have strong character when you're walking on the beach. But what does your character look like when it's under pressure?

And I think back to this kind of training piece that we could be pushing ourselves a little bit more to, to train our character.

And back to the gym analogy, where we talked about progressive overload, where you have to kind of push and give yourself a little bit more pressure to actually build that muscle.

I think with character, we can be trying to create the conditions that push us a little bit more to strengthen our character, even when the context isn't challenging us.

So anyways, I'll just say that that whole point is, is definitely resonates, and I think it's such a challenge for everyone.

Jacqueline Torti [00.42.30]
I appreciate that.

Corey Crossan [00.42.31]
So is there anything that we haven't covered yet that you'd like to cover? No pressure to add anything, but I just want to make sure that we've covered all of the depth of experience and insight that you do bring to this area.

Jacqueline Torti [00.42.49]
I just I do want to take the opportunity just to express some gratitude. So I am really grateful for the opportunity to have been part of the virtuosity program over the last year.

You know, it's been incredibly meaningful for me. It's given me the chance to learn, to really reflect and to grow.

And like I said, just to be with a community of like minded people, really generous people who care deeply about character.

Having again, the opportunity to join you on the podcast to thank you for this.
You know, when I think about the guests that have been on this podcast before, you know, the Giants in this space, it's really an honor to be a part of the conversation alongside them.

And I think more than anything, just thinking about the gratitude for discovering, you know, character and character based leadership and thinking about what a strong sense of purpose it's given me, both personally and professionally.

And it's also reminded me through the virtuosity program that it's never something that's complete.

The more you develop it and the more you grow, the more you realize there's room for growth.

So it's really this lifelong commitment.

But what's been really powerful for me is really understanding the science behind it.

And seeing how the intentional character development can really, genuinely shape how we show up for others, how we show up for ourselves and our communities.

And so just very grateful for the learning, the relationships that have been built and for creating spaces like this, to have these conversations.

Corey Crossan [00.44.22]
Oh well. And gratitude back to you for all the work that you are doing in the character space. It is just really inspiring. And the community, as you say, that we are building, it's just it's phenomenal.

So we have to keep thinking about how we're going to keep that community building and how we can keep learning from one another.

I know that's going to be a topic of conversation for us in the final session next week. But we'll figure out a way to keep learning and building from one another.

So thank you so much for taking the time to come on to the podcast and share your insights and experiences. It was, there's so much to learn from all of the initiatives you're doing. So thanks so much for joining us.

Jacqueline Torti [00.45.00]
My pleasure. Thank you, Corey,

Corey Crossan [00.45.03]
You have just finished another episode from the Virtuosity podcast. If you have any questions and want to connect, please reach out to me at corey@virtuositycharacter.ca.

I'm also on LinkedIn, so let's connect. As always, thank you so much for listening.
Bye for now.