The Virtuosity Podcast

The Partnership Advantage with Mark Chow and Kelly Kiel Garramone

• Virtuosity Character • Season 1 • Episode 13

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What does partnership have to do with character development, leadership, and lasting change?

Kelly Kiel Garramone—CEO and Research Practice Lead at KRW International—and Mark Chow—a Singapore-based consultant, coach, and global leader—join us to explore how partnership can accelerate growth and make character development come alive.

As total strangers on opposite sides of the world, they entered the Virtuosity Program and turned its “partnership” feature into what they now call central to their growth experience. What began as a simple pairing evolved into a friendship built on curiosity, accountability, and shared reflection—proof that even across distance, character connects.

🧠 What you’ll hear:
🤝 How intentional partnership became the core engine of their Virtuosity experience
📅 The weekly cadence, life-story exercise, and reflection-sharing that deepened trust and insight
🌍 How two people—from Singapore and Washington—built a friendship rooted in curiosity and accountability
💡 The character dimensions that made it work: accountability, collaboration, integrity, humility, and courage
⚖️ Why judgment became their integrating center for real-life choices
💬 Their best advice for building partnerships that accelerate growth—starting with choosing someone outside your inner circle
🌱 Why partnership transforms character from something personal into something relational and alive

Resources
 •  KRW International (https://krw-intl.com/)
•  Life Story Exercise by KRW International (https://virtuositycharacter.ca/organization/storage_production_6e2934b8-3e20-47a7-aa79-59a612f967be/73df68bc-3dbc-451a-8528-e4ea5c669362.pdf)
•  River of Life Exercise by Trainings (https://trainings.350.org/resource/river-of-life/)
•  Leader Character Framework with Culture, Virtues, and Vices (https://virtuositycharacter.ca/organization/storage_production_6e2934b8-3e20-47a7-aa79-59a612f967be/990340a0-9980-4919-9456-ab5640b405a0.pdf)

About Virtuosity

• Website (https://virtuositycharacter.ca/)
• Monthly Newsletter (https://mailchi.mp/virtuositycharacter/subscribe-to-the-virtuosity-monthly-newsletter)
• LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/virtuosity-character)
• Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/virtuositycharacter/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=)

Host, Dr Corey Crossan (https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreycrossan/), is a research and teaching fellow at The Oxford Character Project where she develops and facilitates character development programs for students, industry, and university partners. Corey’s love for elite performance developed as she competed in top-level athletics for most of her life, highlighted by competing as a NCAA Division 1 athlete. Corey translated her understanding of elite performance into a passion for helping individuals and organizations develop sustained excellence. She is also the co-founder of Virtuosity Character, a mobile software application created to support the daily, deliberate practice of character-based leadership development.

Corey Crossan [00.00.09]
Every choice builds character. On the Virtuosity podcast, we explore how to make every day a rep toward excellence. I'm Corey, your host and co-founder of Virtuosity. My journey into character development began in sport, where I discovered that strengthening my character didn't just improve my performance — it transformed my entire life. Since then, I've been gripped by understanding how we can intentionally build character to fuel both personal and professional success.

At Virtuosity, we believe character is like a muscle. It needs consistent training. That's why we've built a research-based system that acts as your character gym, making character development practical, scalable, and accessible, even within the largest organizations.

On this podcast, we sit down with participants from our flagship Virtuosity program, where individuals commit to a full year of daily character development powered by Virtuosity. Our guests will share why character matters to them, how they're applying it in their personal and professional lives, and the insights they've gained along the way. We hope these conversations challenge, inspire, and equip you with new ways to integrate character into your own journey.

Subscribe to stay up to date with our weekly episodes. And if something resonates, share it with your friends and colleagues. Ready to start your own Virtuosity journey? Download the Virtuosity Character app or visit virtuositycharacter.ca to learn more.

Now, let's dive into today's episode. Hello everyone, and welcome to the 13th episode of the Virtuosity Podcast. If you're new, I encourage you to check out our launch episode with Mary Crossan for a powerful introduction to this series. Today, we're thrilled to share a special episode featuring insights on partnership in character development. Joining us are Kelly Garramone and Mark Chow.

Kelly, as both CEO and Research Practice Lead of KRW International, brings over thirty years of executive experience, providing coaching and advisory services to boards and the C-suite. One of the principal field researchers for the seminal Return on Character® project, she is now focused on sharing Return on Character broadly in the world.

And Mark was born and raised in Canada but has spent almost all of his working life in Asia. His career has spanned management consulting in Toronto, Shanghai, and Stockholm, internet technology in Beijing and Hong Kong, and agriculture and commodities in Singapore. His roles have generally involved strategy and business development, and he has been a pioneer in building local teams and launching many young Asians into rewarding careers over the past three decades. Today, he lives in Singapore, where he is working towards blending strategy consulting, executive coaching, and non-executive board positions for the next stage of his career.

Corey Crossan [00.00.33]
Well, welcome, Kelly and Mark, to the Virtuosity Podcast. I'm so excited for you to be joining today because you two have been some of the most committed people I've seen throughout this program, and you're partners, so we've got a really unique episode where we can learn from the insights you have to share today.

I want to briefly speak to both of you before we launch into the first question. Kelly, you've been in the character space for quite a while, and we've been really lucky to join forces over the last few years to learn from one another. You're doing great work continuing the initial work of your father with his most notable piece, The Return on Character book, and looking at the phenomenal benefits that come with leaders of strong character. It's been great to learn from what you're doing and for you to see what we’re doing.

And Mark, you’re newer to the character space, but I feel like you’re deep into it now that you’ve been in it for about ten months. There’s no better person for you to partner with than Kelly, who’s been in the character space for a while. It’s great to have you in the character space. You’ve been in management, consulting, and coaching, so the keen eye you bring has been really insightful for us, too.

Before we jump into the unique piece we have with both of you here today on partnership, I want to start by asking you both what I typically ask all of our guests: why does character matter to you? Kelly, I’ll start with you, and then you can pass it over to Mark.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.04.33]
Sure. Thank you, and thank you for all of your kind words, Corey. It's been an absolute privilege to be working with you and Mary, and I know my father would—

Sorry, it makes me a little emotional. My father would so want to be here and doing this with all of us, too, so thank you again for that.

The obvious answer for me about why character matters to me is that it's become my life's work. What we understand about the benefits and implications of character-driven leadership are all about how you recognize what problems exist, how you see those problems, and then how you address them. That's what leadership is about — solving problems and leading people to better places.

We have abundant evidence that when you do that through the power and alignment of your character, it's better for everyone. So, Mark, what have your thoughts become over the ten months that you've worked on this?

Mark Chow [00.05.33]
I started the journey when Mary and I talked about what had been happening and her introduction to Virtuosity. It was really a series of questions. The first question was: character is such a big, important, philosophical word — so what is the definition? Or more precisely, what is my definition?

That was very much a starting point. The second question was around why it matters in my life. That was a reflective one. Across the things I've done, the places I've lived, and especially what you just mentioned around leadership — how does that fit in?

Then the third one was: what action am I going to take about this? Character, to me, is the combination — or this quest is a journey — of seeking answers to that. From what were the elements of character I learned from my parents, to what are the elements of character I want to bring to my children?

Where have I seen good, bad, or ugly character choices in my life’s journey, and how have they differed across geographies, companies, and stages of life? Finally, how do I bring those learnings into everyday life — whether it’s in the way I live and conduct myself, or in my coaching practice, as Corey mentioned.

I owe a lot to you, Kelly, because the partnership has really accelerated my reflections on those questions. To some degree, you’ve helped me — through your own questions — find some answers. It’s been a great journey.

Corey Crossan [00.07.30]
That’s such a nice lead into this partnership piece. When I ask people why character matters to them, a lot of us can answer that — but it’s another kind of ballgame to think about how we actually prioritize it, cultivate it, and develop it. That’s what we’ve been trying to do in the Virtuosity program for the last ten months.

One of the real cornerstones we encourage people to take is this partnership approach. The Seven Strategies framework supports the design of our program, and one of those strategies is the friendship strategy.

I think about it in four ways that help our development. First, it really helps accountability — just like building a new habit, it’s more powerful when you do it with someone else. Second, it shines a light on things we may not see in ourselves, acting as a powerful mirror.

Third, it helps us further our insights. When we exchange ideas and concepts with one another, it stretches our thinking and helps us see the gaps in our own. And lastly — which I think is really powerful — it expands our awareness of what character is by not just keeping it within ourselves, but exploring how it evolves and develops in others.

In understanding that, it helps our own development. You both have taken this to 100% commitment in the Virtuosity program. You’ve been partners, and I’m really excited for you to share your story because it’s a unique and beautiful one. So, I’ll start with the first question: how did you even become partners in the first place? Did you know each other beforehand? Where do you live? All of the details there. Kelly or Mark — whoever wants to start.

Mark Chow [00.09.23]
I can kick it off. I think the answer is that we were both late starters to the program and missed the session in January. The introduction was actually courtesy of you, Corey, and we don’t know how you did it — what magic formula you used to pair us together.

We did not know each other beforehand. I’m based in Singapore, and I didn’t find anyone else from Singapore in the program, so there wasn’t an easy, natural, in-person partner to pick. It was a delight to get to know Kelly, and I think we have some similarities or areas in common. We both grew up in the Midwest, we’re both quite nerdy and curious, and, to your first point about the partnership pillars, we’re both highly accountable. I think that came out and really helped drive the partnership. Over to you, Kelly.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.10.38]
All of that is true. I’m going to say I think you’re nerdier than I am — fair enough. You make spreadsheets out of our posts, okay? That’s all I’m going to say.

Like Mark said, Corey, it was a stroke of brilliance. I don’t know if it was just random or if we were the last two people, so we got put together. What I particularly appreciated was that we had enough in common — with him having grown up in the Midwest and Canada, and both of us being globalists. I come from a Foreign Service family and lived everywhere.

Even more so, with Mark’s McKinsey and Cargill background, he’s the kind of leader I usually work with — someone who can be highly skeptical about the connection between soft things, data, and impact. It was really good for both of us, because his skepticism found a place where he could debate well, and I always want to hear more from those skeptics about what matters to them and what doesn’t. We just had a lot in common, both personally and professionally, that really worked.

Corey Crossan [00.11.48]
It was less genius and not just because you two were the last people in the program. I knew you were both highly committed individuals, and that accountability Mark mentioned definitely resonated. I thought the partnership would work out well, but it’s turned out far beyond my expectations.

This starting point is really powerful because many people ask us who should be partners in this type of program. A lot of people shy away, thinking, “If I don’t see this person every day, can I really be partners with them in a character development journey?” We encourage people to see that it can actually be a way to build a relationship and learn something about one another.

I think this partnership — and what we’ve found through our research — shows that people who engage in these partnership activities are among the most committed to character development and show the most change in character. For anyone listening who’s wondering who they should partner with or how to bring partnership into their character development programs, there are so many ways to approach it.

At the most basic level, it’s an opportunity to learn and build relationships, even if you don’t know each other yet. Building on that point — what were some of the reservations you had going into it? Not knowing each other, having extremely different time zones — what was on your mind? Tell us a little about that.

Mark Chow [00.13.20]
I didn’t have any reservations, so I should let Kelly speak first, and then we’ll see if I can think a bit more on that one. Kelly?

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.13.28]
I didn’t really have any reservations either. I do better in team and partnership anyway, so I was actually grateful for that. I do know that I’ve got colleagues who, when I tell them about this, would be like, “Oh my God, I would never do that,” in terms of baring my soul to a perfect stranger. But on the other hand, he’s on the other side of the planet — what consequence can there be, right? So, I didn’t have any. I can understand why people might, but we were just lucky that neither of us came to it with reservations, so we didn’t have to fight through that at all.

Corey Crossan [00.13.33]
Even if you had anything, it was probably mitigated very quickly because, from my understanding, you set up really intentional structures to get the most out of it. Could you walk us through some of the structures you set up to help you get the most out of this partnership together, especially being on opposite sides of the world?

Mark Chow [00.13.33]
The first thing was to agree on the cadence and the timing. We decided to speak weekly at the beginning, and then we had a conversation that we would shift it to bi-weekly. We have met 18 times over six months, so we’ve managed to keep the cadence most of the time — that was number one.

A second one, in our second meeting — more Kelly’s idea — was to share our stories and spend an entire hour, hour and a half telling each other the full story, the full picture. That went a long way and was really important.

Now, the nerdiness point: we diligently worked through the Virtuosity homework, and in those updates I made an early effort to combine both the performance and interaction scores together with the comments or the diary of the day. At least for me, that gave me a structure to calibrate how Kelly was feeling and how she was scoring herself on whichever character element it happened to be that week. That gave me a very nerdy structure to understand where she was coming from and relate it to how I was feeling at the same time. Those were some of the structures we tried. Kelly?

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.16.37]
I’ll add that Mark’s capacity to track data was really interesting, because he would come back to me and say, “You’ve got a 2.7% increase on your score.” I’m teasing, but he could have — they were in a spreadsheet on scores. I’d be like, “Really? Huh. I wasn’t aware of that.” It was a great way to have a new perspective and reflection about what I was working on.

Likewise, Mark’s more spare in what he would write rather than in his scoring, but he’d give me enough kernels that I’d say, “Tell me more about this,” and you dig in. What I like about the app, Corey, is that you have different modalities in there, so depending on what kind of data people pay attention to or that matters to them, there’s a way in for each. That worked for us; we leveraged what was a strength for each of us.

The life story exercise I would highly recommend. When you asked us this, of course Mark, in his very methodical way, said, “Alright, how much of this is magic and how much is replicable? Let’s figure this out.” We have a spreadsheet on that, too, of each of your questions — what’s unique to us and what could be replicable. The life story exercise is replicable: we took a whole session for each of us so one person was the focus for each one.

The purpose is to have a frame of how somebody came by their character habits as they are now: what were the seminal experiences, how did they learn how the world works and their place in it, how did that affect their leadership? That gives you essential context for whatever comes through the program itself.

That’s how, through a screen and on other sides of the world, we could become friends. I was asking him the other day if he was going to be at the Character Conference at Ivey in November, because if he was, I would have jumped on a plane to go see him. Unfortunately, I can’t go now anyway, but that exercise is definitely replicable, and I highly recommend it. If anybody wants a frame for that, let me know — I can offer a frame for it as well.

Corey Crossan [00.19.00]
I’m so glad you brought that up — what’s replicable versus what’s unique to you. I love that you’ve parsed that out so that as people are listening, they can figure out what should be built into their partnerships versus what might be unique.

And this weekly meeting — or was it weekly or monthly?

Mark Chow [00.19.29]
We were meeting weekly or bi-weekly through the period. The longest gap might have been three weeks for travel reasons, but we were pretty regular.

Corey Crossan [00.19.29]
I think that’s such a powerful piece — this idea that the app is the backbone of our development, but it’s about how you bring it out of the app. How do you bring those insights and reflections into conversation?

It’s amazing how much you’ve done from opposite sides of the world. Imagine people doing this within their teams or organizations — even if they’re not in the same office or see each other daily. Having that weekly touchpoint can greatly enhance support and understanding among teammates, colleagues, and coworkers.

Mary and I — my mom — are partners in Virtuosity, and we try to meet weekly as well. At the end of the week, when you get the weekly insights report, you can see how your partner assesses you versus how you assess yourself. We always look at the gaps, and it’s particularly interesting for us because we talk every day. It becomes a great mirror to see how others might see us versus how we see ourselves.

A standing meeting once a week is a simple but powerful takeaway for everyone.

You’ve talked before about sharing your daily reflections with each other. In the app, you can choose to share reflections, but what I like about the partner feature is that nothing personal is shared unless you choose to. Only the assessments explicitly requested about your partner are shared.

You two took it further and decided to share your personal reflections, which I think is so valuable. Can you share why you made that decision and any insights or experiences that came from it?

Mark Chow [00.21.00]
Similar to the first question about choosing a partner, I didn’t have any reservations about sharing. I felt that if I was going to get Kelly’s input or feedback, it was best that she see as much as possible.

Over the time we’ve worked together, there have been fewer than half a dozen times I chose not to share — not because it was too personal or private, but because I simply had nothing useful to say. I believed it would be helpful, and that belief strengthened within the first few sessions.

As Kelly mentioned, we would often start with questions: “When you wrote this, what did you mean?” or “Can you tell me more about that incident?” In my case, it might be, “It seems this pattern leads to low scores, and this set of circumstances to high scores — is there anything in that for you?”

It strengthened our connection because you’re thinking about your partner even before that weekly connect. Having that data leads to both wider and deeper conversations than you’d otherwise have. It’s a very valuable share feature, and I’d encourage people not to hold back on it.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.23.15]
Corey, as you know, I even asked you to extend the text limit for the journaling, and that’s because for me and for my style, it was the reflections about the scores that I wanted to remember and that mattered. It was also a way to share with Mark — since we don’t work together, there’s no other way to see it.

It gave us a platform for how we’d spend our time when we met. We’re taking time out of our lives to meet with each other, so it needed to be worthwhile and substantive. It essentially helped create an agenda or focus for when we would meet — the more we shared, the more focused and meaningful our conversations became.

It was also another way to continue getting to know and learn about each other.

I’ve found that, just like when you’re driving and your kids are in the backseat, you often have the most substantial conversations because you’re not making direct eye contact — it gives people a little distance and comfort to really share.

I felt it was similar with Mark. I knew there was this person I was accountable to and who was really going to see my reflections, but there was also the arm’s-length aspect that allowed me to reflect and share freely — without needing to hear his immediate reaction. Paradoxically, I think that allowed me to be even more vulnerable and transparent than if we’d done everything face-to-face on Zoom.

Corey Crossan [00.24.42]
There’s something really interesting about that. By the way, I was getting shivers as you talked about those great car conversations with your kids — having that little bit of space. I’ve definitely been there.

There’s something special about being able to write your thoughts and share them without feeling like there needs to be a response or an action item, like with emails every day. That really resonates.

To push this a little further — we get a lot of questions from people in partnerships asking for a resource, something like: What do we talk about during our weekly meeting? How should we use that hour? What prompts should we have?

It seems that because you’ve been digesting each other’s reflections throughout the week, you almost come up with your own curiosities and questions. Has that been the case, or have you had more structure in the types of questions or check-ins you use during your time together?

Mark Chow [00.25.47]
Interesting question. I don’t believe we’ve ever followed a set structure week by week. A few times, when we felt we hadn’t finished a conversation, we extended it into the next week.

To the degree that there’s structure, it usually came after the monthly Virtuosity meetings. We’d follow up on what was discussed — how we felt about it, which exercises we liked or didn’t like — and that led to more deliberate conversations.

Other than that, I’m not sure we ever set up anything very systematic. It was more or less free-flowing, and I really enjoyed that aspect of it. For those who are in partnerships and want a formula, we may not be the best people to talk to about that.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.26.54]
Other than to let it emerge from your reflections and your experiences in the monthly workshops. Sorry — I just lost my train of thought. There was something else I was going to add to that… I lost it.

Corey Crossan [00.27.10]
We can circle back. I’ll come back to you in a second because I think just letting it emerge is quite interesting.

If people aren’t sharing their reflections with their partner, even just starting with your life story — that storytelling approach — can help. Ask, What have you learned in the last week? and What do you think about what I’ve learned?

When you’re sharing insights, you naturally have more questions about each other. That storytelling and experiential piece is a great place to start. And when you’re looking at that weekly report, if there are gaps between how your partner sees you and how you see yourself, that can also be a really good place to begin.

Kelly, it looks like you may have caught your thought back.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.27.58]
Yes, thank you. I got so absorbed in listening that it left for a moment. What we thought we’d try — since we’re acutely aware it’s coming to an end soon — is to choose the same sub-behavior in a month. Because we’ve chosen different things, with different needs and perspectives, we thought that might be an interesting next level for exploring something and holding each other accountable.

We also didn’t do this, but it’s something we could: in the monthly lesson there are reflections. We haven’t done those formally, so that would be another option. I’m trying to think of things we considered that could be replicable for others as a way to give some structure.

Corey Crossan [00.28.43]
That’s a great idea. The weekly lessons have reflection questions you could share with your partner — really good idea.

In this process, we’re trying to develop character, but to be partners — and even to develop our character — we actually need to activate character. Now that you’re near the end of the program and have gone through most dimensions, if you look back, which dimensions did you really have to call on to make this partnership work well?

Mark Chow [00.29.12]
We talked at the get-go about accountability, so we don’t need to say much more there. Collaboration in how we worked together and shared was one. But the two I didn’t expect to be so central were integrity and humility.

Integrity, in terms of authenticity and transparency — much to your previous question about what we shared and why. And humility — learning, being curious, and eventually being grateful that someone on the other side of the planet was reading what I wrote and then having a conversation about it. Accountability and collaboration are the basics, but integrity and humility became central and important to make it work, in my view.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.30.25]
I’d add a little courage, too, because of the risks we were willing to take with each other. In life story we shared a lot, and then even more as we got to know each other.

Three or four months in, I was really taken by a news clip I thought was powerful. I thought, “I’d like to share this on LinkedIn and highlight it,” but something made me think, I’m going to pass this by Mark and see what he thinks because of the cultural and political context. I’m glad I did — it came across very differently to him than I intended.

I also felt I could ask him something pretty sensitive, and that he’d know it was well-intended and that I was trusting him. I’d encourage people, as you build the relationship, to take those risks. By virtue of anyone taking this program, there’s already a higher level of trustworthiness, so you can take some risks.

Mark Chow [00.31.46]
I’ll add that two things snowballed: the coaching dimension — and I know, Corey, you’re thinking about folding that into Virtuosity — which both of us, especially Kelly, brought into it. And one final dimension we haven’t yet covered in the course: judgment.

Not just Kelly’s example, but several times we shared choices in our lives we weren’t completely sure of. Because we’ve gone through the character wheel and talked about it, we understand each other’s balances — where there’s deficit or surplus — and we’re able to tune that a bit as the other is making choices. Your point about the light or the mirror came up as we went through it, using some coaching techniques and balancing things with judgment in the center. Not at the beginning, but over time, that comes.

Corey Crossan [00.33.34]
I think that piece is really important. Even as we think about bringing more character into coaching, the idea that if you can understand the character of those around you — whether it’s a client, a colleague, a partner, or your child — you can offer advice or feedback much more effectively. You can see which dimensions they may need to activate, or where they might be leaning into excess. That’s a really important takeaway.

As I think about the overall impact of this partnership, we’ve been pulling out insights along the way, but is there anything to add in terms of how this partnership has impacted your commitment to character, the relationship you’ve created with one another — you’ve said you’re friends now — or even how it’s helped you extract deeper insights? What would you say is the biggest impact of this partnership for you?

Mark Chow [00.34.30]
Kelly, why don’t you start?

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.34.32]
Well, it’s undoubtedly that I now have someone new in my life. I think we’ll be friends for the rest of our lives. This is an unusually rich beginning to a friendship — it often grows more slowly, but this felt like the express train to it. That’s a marvelous, long-lasting takeaway.

From my perspective — and I know everyone’s different — this was the difference that made the difference for me in the program. If it had just been my private reflection, especially since that’s what I do all day anyway on character, and then meeting monthly — as wonderful as those group sessions are — it’s still a big group. I don’t remember everyone all the time.

This partnership humanized it. It made it personal, tangible, and engaging at a level I know I wouldn’t have reached without it.

Mark Chow [00.35.38]
I agree completely. Friendship isn’t an easy thing to build virtually or through a program, so I really appreciate that we were lucky enough to meet each other this way.

As I mentioned earlier, Kelly has been instrumental in helping me find answers to why character matters to me. She’s helped me define and reflect on it, and even more so, she’s helped me think about actions — asking questions and probing my choices.

The impact will continue in the future, because character and leadership are going to be central to my consulting and coaching work. Going through this with Kelly makes me believe it can be truly impactful. I see the value in having these kinds of conversations.

I won’t say my skepticism is entirely gone, but I have a healthy respect now for how much this can benefit people — and I want to bring that forward in the work I do. That’s a big impact.

Corey Crossan [00.37.20]
Huge impacts, for sure. And when you think about everything we’ve covered, I’ll ask for two sets of recommendations. First, for people thinking about adding a partner — what advice would you give about who they should consider partnering with?

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.37.40]
This might seem a little paradoxical, but I’d recommend choosing someone who isn’t in your inner circle.

You often get enough feedback from people close to you, or it’s hard for them to see you freshly. If you’re trying to grow or develop, it can be easier with someone who doesn’t have a fixed view of you — you’re not fighting against their assumptions.

Whether you choose someone in your field or organization but farther away, that matters less. What’s more important is how set the other person’s perception of you already is.

Mark Chow [00.38.25]
I hadn’t given this too much thought, but in addition to having someone who doesn’t know you very well, I’d suggest partnering with people who are at different stages of their character journey.

Because Kelly has been doing this for so long and I haven’t been doing it very long at all, those different perspectives were valuable. I’ll be curious to see whether Kelly agrees with me, but I think that difference brings new insights on both sides and allows both to grow differently.

If there’s a way to do that within Virtuosity, I think that could be really valuable.

Corey Crossan [00.39.29]
I love both of those insights — like you said, Kelly, they’re paradoxical; you almost wouldn’t think of them, but I completely agree with both.

And Mark, as you were talking about the different stages, it reminded me of when you started this podcast asking, “What does character mean?” or “What’s the definition of character?” As someone who’s been in this field a long time, I forget how important that fundamental starting question is.

For those who have been in the character space a while, seeing someone new come in — hearing their insights and discoveries — is so valuable. I’m sure you experienced that, Kelly. And of course, Mark gets all of your wisdom from your experience in this space, so that exchange clearly benefits both sides.

I was also thinking about this from another lens — people often ask about hierarchies in organizations, like whether partnerships should cross different levels, such as leaders and non-leaders. I think that can be a great way to normalize development and build connections across those hierarchies, because character is for everyone. We’re all on that development journey.

That said, if you’re working closely with someone every day, that can also make for a great partnership. For example, I’m also partners with my husband, and it’s amazing how often we use this in everyday life. Even in the early stages, when I was focusing on resilience, I’d ask him, “How do you see my resilience showing up?” or, when I might be leaning toward deficiency or excess, “How do you see that in me?”

It’s really interesting — most of the time fun, sometimes challenging — but it opens up a whole new kind of conversational space, even with people you’re closest to.

So there are many different kinds of partnerships that work. I love that you both brought up the paradoxical, less obvious recommendations — it helps people open their minds to new ways of thinking about partnerships.

The last piece of advice I’d love for you to share is for those who are already in partnerships: how can they get the most out of the experience? You’ve mentioned structures and tips — like sharing daily reflections and starting with your life story — but is there anything else you’d add or want to emphasize?

Mark Chow [00.42.08]
This might sound a bit risky, Corey, and I’ll be curious how you react to it — but I’d suggest treating the partnership as the core element of Virtuosity.

That doesn’t mean the app or the monthly workshops aren’t important, but as Kelly said earlier, this partnership changes how you relate to the program and how much value you gain from it.

At the beginning, I treated partnering as just one piece, and I didn’t expect it to become the most important one. I’d encourage people to have an open mindset — not necessarily to set that as a goal, but to see it as a possibility. Thinking of it that way brings the experience to another level.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.43.12]
Funny, Mark — just hearing you say that, I felt my brain shift, because I thought, oh, he’s right. That’s actually what happened. And to your point, it’s not minimizing the other pieces. It enables the other pieces to help us create more meaning, traction, and depth of understanding. As a system, it works beautifully together.

But to your point a few moments ago, Corey, I think everybody needs to approach this in the way that fits them and know there are many ways of putting it all together. And for another paradox or polarity — hold it lightly at the same time as being really committed to what you’re doing, and it’ll emerge for you in your partnership.

Corey Crossan [00.44.01]
I love this idea of it being central, and I definitely treat it as a central piece with the partners I have. Something I need to keep thinking about — and if you have ideas, we’ll take this offline — is how to make it more central. You were both so committed, but how do you, without making it forceful, set it up to be such a foundational piece? I can think of some ways to keep chipping away at making that structure more central, and I look forward to your thoughts on how to do that for our 2026 program.

Those are most of the questions I had in terms of insights I wanted to gather from you. Is there anything we haven’t covered that you want to share — whether about the partnership, other insights from the program, advice — anything on your mind?

Mark Chow [00.45.02]
I think we’ve covered quite a lot. The natural next thing — something Kelly and I haven’t really talked about — is how you continue this. Whether it’s just she and I continuing as partners and friends going forward, or, Corey, you thinking about alumni of the program as potential partners, or folding them into the coaching idea — how do you build on it when it works? And how do you help others when it’s not working so well? That’s a natural space to ask questions and try some experiments.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.47.01]
That’s a really good point. I was thinking about this when we said, “Oh, we didn’t meet last night,” because that would have been our time — we were doing this instead — and I felt like, oh… Then I wondered what it will be like after December 18th when we don’t have that. And then I thought, it doesn’t mean we have to cancel it — we could keep doing it too. That was going to be my agenda item for next time, Mark: what’s next.

I love these ideas about how we could continue through this structure, and whether there’s any way we could be helpful, Corey, with what comes next — all of the above. I was looking through your notes too, Mark, to see if there’s anything else we didn’t cover. The only other thing was how much we both shared learning and resources — models, research, or good stories — that supported the character dimensions we were discussing. That’s been a cherry on top: having Mark’s ideas and references to resources I wouldn’t have expected. For two nerdy people who are curious and love to learn, that was another great piece that kept stimulating our ongoing learning — I really valued it.

Corey Crossan [00.47.21]
Very interesting — and I love the idea of thinking about what’s next. A lot of people ask us what comes next. Part of the reason we made this a year-long program is that it gives enough time to cultivate habits that can sustain. The question is: without the current structure, what do we create to continue sustaining the habits we’ve built? I’ll follow up with you both for a brainstorming session on what we could offer to keep the ball rolling.

Anything else before we close? No pressure — I just want to make sure we’ve taken time to capture the valuable insights you’ve shared and gained along the way.

Mark Chow [00.48.32]
Nothing more than a big thank you, Corey. I’ve watched many — not all — of the podcasts, and you were creative enough to say, “Let’s try one with both of you.” I think that’s wonderful — we’ve mixed it up a bit, and hopefully this brings value to others in the program or in future programs.

Kelly Kiel Garramone [00.49.03]
I’ll add my thanks, Corey. This has been a tremendously enriching experience. I’m grateful to you and Mary — and grateful to you, Mark, and all the other participants. I feel like I learn something from you every month, not only about character, but also about how to facilitate in a nice way, with variety, over time. Your new explainer videos — whatever you’re calling them — are masterful. I was texting Mark on the last one, saying, “Who writes these for her? Do you write them?”

They’re really good — really good. Anybody who isn’t watching those is missing out, so I highly recommend them.

Corey Crossan [00.49.12]
Thanks to you both. I was reflecting on my last month and I’ve been feeling it’s been particularly challenging. Sometimes in the character space — trying to push this paradigm shift of character alongside competence — there are a lot of challenges and obstacles. But when I get to work with people like you, and see the inspiring work you’re doing and your commitment, and the benefits that come from it, it really drives the meaning in our work.

It means so much to me that you’ve committed to this and are willing to share your insights today. Thank you for taking the time to be here — and for the commitment you’ve had over the last year. It’s absolutely fabulous.

You’ve just finished another episode of the Virtuosity Podcast. If you’d like to connect, reach out to me at corey@virtuositycharacter.ca or find me on LinkedIn. As always, thank you so much for listening. Bye for now.

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Kelly Kiel Garramone

Guest
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Mark Chow

Guest