Boards, Regulators, & Strategy with Bill Furlong

Bill Furlong (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-furlong-0689753/) is a distinguished finance and leadership expert who served as Vice Chair at TD Securities and now advances character-based leadership through his work with Ivey Business School, Leader Character Associates, and various governance roles.

Quotes From Bill

•  "If you want to get an early warning sense of where this organization is going to go, if you have a good sense of what the character of the leadership and the board is like, you're going to have a very good sense as to where the organization is going to go over the two to five year time frame."
•  "Once you've rewired your brain, you become basically a different person, but now you become the different person that you've always wanted to be, one with enormous strength and character."
•  "Directors are brought onto boards for their judgment—and judgment is rooted in character.”
•  "You don’t need elite credentials to build character. It’s available to anyone willing to put in the reps."
•  "I think we underestimate the degree to which we can change the context we're in. One person can shift the whole room."
•  "The culture of an organization is really the aggregate of the character of its people."
•  "Virtuosity gives me the structure I need—without it, I’d probably be a D in character development."

Resources

  •  Leader Character Associates (https://leadercharacterassociates.com/)
  •  Question of Character podcast (https://www.questionofcharacter.com/)
  •  Character Quotient Assessment in Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/marycrossan/2025/03/26/from-good-to-great-10-ways-to-elevate-your-character-quotient/)
  •  Leader Character Framework with Culture, Virtues, and Vices (https://virtuositycharacter.ca/organization/storage_production_6e2934b8-3e20-47a7-aa79-59a612f967be/8505b936-d1fd-4b36-96ed-62663e1c5b9a.pdf)

About Virtuosity

• Website (https://virtuositycharacter.ca/)
• Monthly Newsletter (https://mailchi.mp/virtuositycharacter/subscribe-to-the-virtuosity-monthly-newsletter)
• LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/virtuosity-character)
• Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/virtuositycharacter/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=)

Host, Dr Corey Crossan (https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreycrossan/), is a research and teaching fellow at The Oxford Character Project where she develops and facilitates character development programs for students, industry, and university partners. Corey’s love for elite performance developed as she competed in top-level athletics for most of her life, highlighted by competing as a NCAA Division 1 athlete. Corey translated her understanding of elite performance into a passion for helping individuals and organizations develop sustained excellence. She is also the co-founder of Virtuosity Character, a mobile software application created to support the daily, deliberate practice of character-based leadership development.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome
• 1:40 Introduction to Bill
• 2:56 Question of Character Podcast
• 7:55 Character Matters
• 14:00 Bill's Background
• 16:25 Boards, Regulators, Strategy
• 25:18 Personal & Professional Application
• 52:53 Character Quotient
• 57:52 Culture
• 59:54 Bye For Now

Transcript

Corey Crossan

[00.00.09]

Every choice builds character. On the Virtuosity podcast, we explore how to make everyday a rep toward excellence. I'm Corey, your host and co-founder of Virtuosity. My journey into character development began in sport, where I discovered that strengthening my character didn't just improve my performance, it transformed my entire life. Since then, I've been gripped with understanding how we can intentionally build character to fuel both personal and professional success. At Virtuosity, we believe character is like a muscle. It needs consistent training. That's why we've built a research-based system that acts as your character gym, making character development practical, scalable, and accessible, even within the largest organizations. On this podcast, we sit down with participants from our flagship Virtuosity program, where individuals commit to a full year of daily character development powered by Virtuosity. Our guests will share why character matters to them, how they're applying it in their personal and professional lives, and the insights they've gained along the way. We hope these conversations challenge, inspire, and equip you with new ways to integrate character into your own journey. Subscribe to stay up to date with our weekly episodes. And if something resonates, share it with your friends and colleagues. Ready to start your own Virtuosity journey? Download the Virtuosity Character app or visit Virtuosity to learn more. Now let's dive into today's episode. Hello everyone, and welcome to the fourth episode of the Virtuosity Podcast. If you're new, I encourage you to check out our launch episode with Mary Crossan for a powerful introduction to the series. Today, we're thrilled to welcome Bill Furlong as our guest. Bill Furlong is a distinguished leader and expert in finance, governance and leadership. He served as Vice Chair at TD Securities, where he held senior global leadership roles from 1994 to 2012. Since retiring, Bill has been an Executive-in-Residence at the Ian O. Ihnatowycz Institute for Leadership at Ivey Business School, contributing to thought leadership on leader character, conduct, and organizational purpose. He is also a co-founder of the podcast Question of Character and has co-authored essays and the book, The Character Compass, on character-based leadership. He recently co-founded Leader Character Associates, a boutique consulting firm focused on the application of Leader Character into organizational contexts. Additionally, Bill is actively involved in governance, serving on the board of CAA Club Group, as an OSC Commissioner and as an adjudicator for the Capital Markets Tribunal. Great to have you with us Bill!

Bill Furlong

[00.02.48]

I'm delighted to be here. And I think I owe you at least three of these. I think you've done three with me on the Question of Character podcast. 

Corey Crossan

[00.02.56]

Yeah. I have to say, it does feel a little out of place to be playing the host when I've been on your podcast a few times. And on that note, I'd love to start by asking you, what are some of the favorite episodes that stand out for you in terms of the episodes you've hosted on the Question of Character podcast? 

Bill Furlong

[00.03.14]

So I think in every single one of them, there has been something that I really like that's really stood out.  I think in part because it's your podcast query, I think the podcast, we've done a couple, but the one we did, episode four, which was around, can character actually change? It actually had a huge impact on me. We were going through and we were talking about core beliefs and core beliefs being functional or not functional. I recall you don't like to actually use the word dysfunctional. And  I remember I at the time, it sort of it hit me, oh that's interesting. Like dysfunctional core beliefs. And then as I was doing the editing, I edited a couple times and I edited oh, that's interesting. I used to think about this more, and I think it was maybe the third time I was editing the podcast and I, and it was only until then that the penny actually dropped and I started to think more about, like, core beliefs and what my core beliefs are. I think I went online and I, you know, you can get these sort of things that gives you this quick test on this. And I found it extremely edifying and, and informational and, and a sense of self-awareness. And it caused me actually to make some significant changes in my life in terms of how I thought about myself and how the world works and, and how I work and stuff like how this works. So I think that was the one that, you know, was in many ways,  transformational for me. But I would, you know, it didn't take me 3 or 4 times to hear you say it before the penny finally dropped. But I found it really important. So that has to be probably my favorite episode. 

Corey Crossan

[00.04.47]

That is so funny because I've been finding, as I get to relisten to the episodes that I've been recording, you do hear things differently, and that is such a positive takeaway from being a host on the podcast and just knowing as a lecturer, and as we've done a lot of character sessions with others, it is worth saying really important things time and time again, because that's just how we learn. 

Bill Furlong

[00.05.10]

I pride myself on picking up quickly, but I shouldn't. So I think sometimes just some of the stuff just takes time to get through. And anyway, in that case, around core beliefs, it's the idea of core beliefs being that, you know, it's almost like you can't build a house with too many stories on it until you sort the basement out. And so I had to do some work in the basement before, actually, the foundation was strong enough to actually build more floors. And it's actually worked out really well. So thank you, Corey, for that. 

Corey Crossan

[00.05.37]

Oh, I'm glad you liked it. I have to say, one of my favorite episodes from the Question of Character is the one with Kate Ashby on Improv, which is this whole concept that you've brought into the character world. Do you want to share a little bit about what that episode looked like, and how we've really been drawing on improv for character? 

Bill Furlong

[00.05.54]

So, Kate's wonderful. And just for some background, Kate has been my improv teacher for about ten years when I retired from TD. I thought to myself, you know what? Sometimes I go to these presentations and I'm super anxious and I don't understand what it's about. Like, why do I do that? And, so I thought, you know, I'll take an improv class and I'm going to take an acting class and see if that actually gets me more comfortable in that space. And this is before I actually, I've met Mary and started doing any of the character work. I just sort of had this instinct I needed to go in that direction. And Kate is wonderful. She's one of the best, if not the best improv teacher in Canada, and I think one of the best in the world. And when I got started getting to work with Mary and yourself in the sphere of character, I began to see how improv could be used to develop character. And lo and behold, of course, Mary had already done a bunch of work in that space even ten years earlier, but hadn't really connected improv and character yet at that point because she was still in the early stages. So then we began to work, I think Mary began to bring Kate into some of her MBA classes and her transformational leadership classes. And the students loved it. It's a case of getting uncomfortable and getting out of your comfort zone, but there's so much to learn through the practice of improv, things like courage and accountability and collaboration. And like we've talked in the past, you can't read about character and get stronger character. You actually have to live it. And I find character or improv is probably for me, it's the best and most fun way to actually start to practice these new behaviors in a really safe and fun environment. And, I just love the work, and I love Kate. And it's just the changes that she makes in people's lives is just remarkable. So, and the work, the character work of the improv work are so well partnered. It's just been a pleasure. 

Corey Crossan

[00.07.40]

Yeah, it's definitely stuck with me. And even though we're no expert like Kate is, she's just phenomenal when she does it. It is still a class favorite when we when just bring improv into our own classes. Students love it the most out of any character session, so it's definitely available for anyone to use. So moving into the first question, I typically start by asking all guests, is starting with why does character matter to you? 

Bill Furlong

[00.08.05]

So, you know, it's always mattered to me, Corey. Even before I even bumped into the character work, I had always admired people that I thought a character I'd always tried to, you know, tried to sort of be a person of character. But honestly, I was only able to go so far with it. And so the character’s always been important. I think, largely speaking, people think character is important. You always think about, that your sports heroes or your political figure, heroes are the ones you look up to, are the ones that have a lot of character. With the work that Mary had pioneered, along with Gerard and Jeffrey and others, made it so important is that it actually turned it into something which was, went from being subjective to being objective and being to be kind of unstructured to structured. And now you could start to learn and develop and grow it. And so as it's become more scientific,  it just becomes this extremely valuable tool,  an approach to actually change and transform your life. And I think the evidence and if you know, we don't need to cover it here, but there's lots of evidence to suggest that and to support that, suggest to support the character. Strength of character actually improves your own personal outcomes, the outcomes of your team and your organization. It improves your well-being and relationships. Like this. Just it's really, a very powerful concept and structure, and now a suite of tools that allows you to grow in ways. And in particular, if as you get more senior and more engaged in items, as you're looking for, that edge and character is absolutely something that can give you the edge. Part of it is then, you know, raises the question of, okay, well, the only reason you do character is because it's good for you, you know, and, and I think to myself, okay, well, the only reason I eat well is because that's good for me. Because if I had my choice, I would eat chocolate all the time. So there's part of it is, yeah, I do stuff that's good for me. But I would also argue it's actually more than just good for me. It's actually good for everyone that's in my orbit. So my relationships are better. My decisions at work, to the extent that I do this, this kind of work, work and other kinds of work with you, those decisions are better. The outcomes are better. I think that there's this almost like this virtuous circle, or almost like a ripple that just goes out from you. And it's almost like this positive contagion. So, frankly, it's not just me. I actually think that the broader profile or impact that I can have around this work. It actually helps lots and lots of people. And I would say the second thing is, is that if it wasn't good for me, it'd be pretty hard to keep it up. So the idea that you do something that it's almost like Darwinian in a way. Right? So that the habits that are good for you are the ones that you will continue to work on. And,  you know, in the absence of actually promoting and living those habits, then I think if they weren't good for me, they would get like from a Darwinian perspective, it would become extinct. And the world we love, the people who don't have any character at all. And so I think that the idea that just because it's good for you is the reason that you do it is, you know, practically speaking, if it's not, it has to be good for you in order to promote it and to perpetuate it and to have this sense of contagion. So I think the work is extremely important in that context. For me, I would also say that the world that we live in, we've never needed character more. So we're increasingly heading towards a might versus right world, where the strong, there's the corner probably got the name wrong from two cities, an ancient philosopher, the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must. And that's not a world that I want to live in. And I don't think it's actually the world that actually works the best either. And so I think that the world needs a better answer to that. I think character is actually the better answer, where we all collectively work together. And I think character has this way of making you think not just about yourself, but about the broader world and how you can actually have a growth mindset. Talk about that. For core beliefs versus a fixed mindset. Growth mindset being, I guess, win-win. A fixed mindset, being the world's a win-lose place. And I just don't believe that. And I think there's lots of that to suggest. That's not the case. And so I see character as foundational to that work. So for me it's deeply purpose-driven. Beyond because of all of those other reasons in terms of the positive outcomes that it has for me individually, teams, groups, organizations, communities and society. So that's kind of what we're working on. It's a big, bold ambition, but I think nothing less will do. 

Corey Crossan

[00.12.39]

I could not agree more. And I absolutely love the character piece that you're picking up on how it impacts ourselves, others, society. Like, there's not too many things that if you focus on one thing, it has this multi-level effect. And so I just think it's a no brainer. Why wouldn't you focus on something that helps yourself and also helps others and helps society? It's just so powerful. 

Bill Furlong

[00.13.02]

And the thing is, is that as we've talked about the past, is your character is always developing. And so when is that important? Why not actually understand it and then take control over it? Because it's not like it's not like it's a binary choice. So I'm going to have character, not have character. No, you have character. You cannot help it. You have a certain set of behaviors. And so because they're so impactful on you and on your community in the world,  I think it's an obligation actually to understand what those behaviors are and how they need to be turned into habits that actually, that actually are part of like an intelligent and intentional approach to it. Otherwise it's haphazard. And who knows what's going to happen to either yourselves or the people that are close to you. So to me, it borders on becomes an obligation in terms of being just a citizen of the world. 

Corey Crossan

[00.13.52]

Yeah. So we're going to dig into more about how you think character can really play a role in that later. But before that, I mean, I know you really, really well. We actually have a standing meeting once a week where we just talk about character. But for the listeners that don't know you, can you share a little bit more about what your background is and who you are? 

Bill Furlong

[00.14.10]

Oh, sure. So you had a very nice bio. So thank you for that introduction at the beginning. My background,  probably the most sustainable part of my career, about maybe 20, 25 years was in  capital markets and the structural finance side and then the governance and oversight side with the Canadian bank. I've really enjoyed that environment as dynamic. It can be complex. And the stakes are high. And so I liked that. It was a wonderful time and space, but I felt towards the end of that part of that phase of my career in life is that, I felt pulled in a different direction. I felt like there was something else calling me, and, I didn't see the answers going forward in the work that I was doing. And I also felt, honestly, that I needed to. I had to spend a lot of time with my family, and I needed to actually work on spending quantity time as opposed to quality time, quantity time with my family to grow. And so, my background, you know, did a couple of business degrees, worked in lots of different areas before I worked in capital markets, R&D and manufacturing and then once I'd finished my career in financial services began, then, as you alluded to in the biography, I think, you know, doing a bunch of work with you and Mary and others around character because I find that so important. I sit on a couple of boards and I've done some work with the Ontario Securities Commission or the OSC, both as a commissioner as well as an adjudicator in their recently formed capital markets tribunal. And I just find that work absolutely fascinating, as I do the board work. And I'll sit on this regulatory board, former finance exec. And now working with the character framework is just this really interesting, interconnected, self-reinforcing portfolio of activities that together almost makes up kind of like a full time job. 

Corey Crossan

[00.16.09]

Yeah. You've done a lot. And it's really great now that you've moved into really devoting your life to the character space, but also having all that background in financial services when we have been doing work in that context, having that credibility that you bring is such an important piece. And so moving into that, I want to pick apart more about why you think character matters in boards, for regulators, and for strategy. If you want to kind of take us through each of those. 

Bill Furlong

[00.16.38]

So I think maybe, I'll talk a little bit about boards and regulators and strategy. A little bit of it is I'll refer back to some of the work that we've done in the past. But I think it's foundational. So let me just start a little bit with boards. And when you think about how boards should be thinking about character, I mean, the first one is an easy one. One of the boards, some would argue that the only job the board really has is actually to hire the CEO. And when you're hiring the CEO, what are you doing? What you're looking at, you know, what you want someone with character. And the thing is, is that there's everyone already knows that, right? Like, people, they have an enormous amount of psychometric and psychological testing before they take on CEOs. They do deep reference checks because they're trying to figure out who is this person. I've even had one person tell me is what they do is they bring a CEO in and they basically just work with them for a day or two to break down the veneer and find out who they actually have. You know, what they're really trying to get at is character. And if you think about from a board's perspective, if they really took a scientific, structured approach to CEO selection, it would include a very rigorous assessment and understanding of the character of the CEO that they're bringing in. Because CEOs are critical. You get the wrong CEO, like, first of all, you don't know it right away. It takes a couple of years and then it takes a year to actually fix that. Whereas you get the right CEO and everything just seems the same, you know, and there's an enormous amount of growth. So that's one. The second one is that I think, and we read about this a little bit in the character context, we talked about boards and governance. You know I think a little bit of a triad between purpose of an organization at the top and purpose then connects to strategy. And then strategy connects to culture. And those three vertices of a triangle all connect together. And they really should be very aligned and consistent. And to me then you think about okay, well what's the character can become something which actually knits all three of those together. It becomes a way for us to think about the organization's purpose, how you actually define culture. And I'll talk about culture in a moment and also strategy. All of those should be linked, and character can become the common language for linking all of those together. And the last thing I would say is that, you know, directors on boards are brought in not to run the company because that's management's job. They're brought in for their judgment. And at the end of the day, why do we think judgment is judgment is this combination of competence and commitment. And of course, character, and character is more than anything else. But when you bring in directors and board members, what you're really looking for is this sort of wisdom that they're supposed to have and share. And just because you have it doesn't mean you're going to share it. Like, you know, speaking up in a board meeting when everyone else is in a different direction takes a lot of character. So there's the character actually to have the wisdom, there's a character of being able to share it and then knowing how to share it and when to share. It's just all this big sort of judgment equation. So character, I think, is foundational for boards and for board members for those three reasons, the CEO, the link to that triad. And then again, the idea of just having personal judgment. From a regulator. That's all of that.  I also think that regulators increasingly are getting the view that, you know, regulators are often, they focus on, okay, well, what are the quarterly reports look like? And they get all kinds of data and information from their organizations. And I'm speaking now specifically in the financial services space. And they're increasingly beginning to realize that by the time the numbers go wrong, it's too late. Like the house is falling apart, the house of cards has fallen, and they need something in the way of early warning. And I'll point to us here and some other recent guidelines that talks about conduct, culture, character, integrity and security. And at the beginning to realize is that they need to look at that. I would actually argue that's the same thing for rating agencies and also for investors. If you want to get an early warning sense of where this organization is going to go, if you have a good sense of what the character of the leadership and the board is like, you're going to have a very good sense as to where the organization is going to go over the 2 to 5 year time frame, because again, by the time the numbers show up and they're bad, it's too late and now you're in recovery mode as opposed to sort of some sort of proactive mode. And I know this is something that I've been thinking about for ages. I had 2013 or 2014, then, the New York Fed's been running culture and conduct seminars. Actually, Mary and I went to see the New York Fed back in 2019 to talk about this. ASF is for the OSC who have made presentations and had discussions with all of them. The FCA in the UK has also been very interested in this. And again, it's all of the sense of trying to understand things like conduct and culture and these early warning risks. So I think it's foundational. I think there's lots more things that could be done. And the exact same thing that boards and regulators are thinking about. I think radiation season investors are thinking about it as well. And that's another area which I'd love to start to pursue. 

Corey Crossan

[00.21.43]

Yeah. That's quite a bit. And as you're just talking about, you know, the importance of character and regulators, I was thinking about how and a lot of the meetings that we've been doing recently with different financial institutions and in that area, the behavioural science is starting to pick up quite a bit. And that's kind of the angle that they've been taking. And I think they're running up against two issues with just the behavioral approach. One, it's actually quite interesting as we learn more about this, that even with the behavioral approach, people are still struggling with how do you actually change behaviors. And so that's something that we've really been focusing on, is actually putting the tools in front of people to actually change those behavioral habits. But two, of course, is which behaviors do you choose to focus on? And when you're only choosing a few behaviors, you risk that those strengths start to manifest as excess vices. So that's something that we've really been pushing is it's not just five behaviors that you think are important, but actually if it is those five behaviors, you have to be thinking about all of the character dimensions to support those behaviors that you seem to care the most about. So I think that's a really important piece. 

Bill Furlong

[00.22.53]

Exactly. You and I were in the meeting months ago with a global bank. And the holy grail for them is how to change. And I think the idea of how do you permanently change habits because we think about culture, I think you think about culture is that the culture of an organization is really the aggregate of the character of the members of that organization. And, of course, organizations exist within the larger society community. And so if you know, that's part of it too. But the critical thing is, is that you have to start to figure out how to change habits. And that's where the work that you've been pioneering, Corey, I think is really the answer to the question of how do we change character and how do we change the habits in a way that becomes sustainable and permanent? The character work is so powerful. I've been in so many meetings, and I'm sure you have too is that after we do a presentation or a workshop on character and people are just buzzing and but it's this awareness piece and a little bit of a sense of the power of what it is. And in some ways it kind of works against us in a way, because people walk out of there and they kind of go, oh, I've got this whole new way of paradigm and way of thinking about character, and there's so much richness here now, like, I'm just that's all I need. And, they kind of work on that and work on that. And they think that's good. But then slowly, slowly drift back into their old habits as that sort of euphoria of that first, those first insights and awareness begin to fade. And, it's so important that the work around habit development,  it's not training, it's not awareness, it's actually habit development. And I think that's the place where organizations that need to make changes and they all actually, they all can and should get better. That I think is this, I think there's an enormous amount of possibility in cultivating and nurturing that particular line of thinking, because I think that's where the real benefits of the work around character start to make themselves out of it. 

Corey Crossan

[00.24.54]

Yeah, I totally agree with when people first get introduced to character, they just feel so empowered. And I love how Mary talks about when you get that really comprehensive vocabulary, it's like you're putting on a new set of glasses that helps you see the world differently, and that is so empowering. But then it's actually how do you take it to the next step to actually start to see changes? How do you actually improve your behavior to be better? So on that note, what are you doing to apply character, whether it's in your personal and/or professional life? 

Bill Furlong

[00.25.25]

So one thing, of course, because I'm on the podcast today, is because I'm a part of your group around Virtuosity and this year-long journey. And so that's a practice that every day and just keeping it in front of me, I've been surprised. I'll talk about a bit later, if I can, about some of the insights I've gained from that. But in terms of, once you start to have it, it's once it starts to be part of your daily ritual. And so with Virtuosity, you know, it's a couple of minutes in the morning. Okay. What's today's exercise? What are we talking about? And the idea of reflection, it just starts to work its way into your daily thinking. And an example I like to share, was actually a while ago, but I think it's still relevant is that I was heading into a meeting a couple of years ago. I was heading into some meetings that I knew were going to be really contentious the next morning. And so, you know, thinking through all the different angles and how are people going to react to it? And how do I make sure that the issue that I have needs to get raised? And I had a pretty fitful sleep, woke up at four in the morning and could not get back to sleep. I set the alarm, I think, for six. So I'm sort of, you know, tossing and turning, thinking about this, and I can just feel like the anxiety and actually I wear what's called an aura ring. And so I can actually measure things like stress and heart rate and HRV.  And so I didn't sleep at all. I can feel myself kind of armoring up for what I thought might be a contentious, difficult meeting, partly because I think I was the only person that had this particular perspective on this, on this issue. And the alarm goes off and I'm like, ah, here we go. And, you know, just before I get out, I'm just going to think a little bit about what dimensions of character would actually help me today and the two dimensions I came from that I immediately sprung up were humanity and humility. And humility from the perspective of, you know what? What if you're wrong? What if, like you thought it true, but you could still be wrong? That could be information that you don't have that could be flowing or thinking or logic. And the other way around. Humanity is just seeing the forthcoming meetings today through the eyes of everyone else. We're all on the same page. We all want the same thing. These aren't my enemies. These are the people that I'm working with trying to achieve various purposes and outcomes. And immediately I could just feel a sense of calm kind of descending over me. And so I get up and I go to my meetings and instead of showing up at the meeting, tense and kind of preparing for something, and, you know, it's like we're that way, right? People ask you, good morning. And you kind of, you know, you can answer good morning. And then, you know, go back to what you're doing again. Hey, how are you doing? Nice to see you. What's going on? Like you have, it's just a different conversation. Like a different Bill shows up and instead of the meetings, instead of sort of being strident and focusing on the issue that I have, I introduced the issue in a far more, I'd say, balanced approach and in more of a listening mode as opposed to a telling mode. And then the outcome of the meeting was a far better dialogue at the meeting itself. And I contrast that with, had I not actually had the framework to think about, if I hadn't thought about humanity and humility, but just burst into that meeting thinking I'm right. You guys are wrong. You're going to hurt this organization. This is not what you want to do, blah blah blah. What a different meeting, what a different day, what a different experience, what a different outcome that is. And it all happens because I spent five minutes. I actually asked myself one question - what dimensions of character do I need to bring today? Heading into these meetings and so I think about like it's a, it's as simple as that, that of, of just reminding yourselves and having that and then being able to draw on the habits of humanity and humility. What does it actually mean, that the outcomes are amazingly different? And before I was introduced to the character framework, who knows how it would have gone? I probably wouldn't have understood how it had gone. If it had gone well, I wouldn't know why it had gone poorly. I wouldn't know why, and I'd be left kind of picking up the pieces. Right. And maybe other people are picking up pieces too, right. As you sort of go into that. So the allocation is all the time. And I'm always amazed by how these little shifts in perspective have such, absolutely, has such a profound impact on consequences and outcome. 

Corey Crossan

[00.29.45]

Yeah, it reminds me a lot of our good friend, Ted MacDonald. Whenever we do character sessions, he has this great slide where it's a picture of a wardrobe, and he has a question - what character do I need to wear today? What's required of me today? And what do I need to wear? And to take that one step further, I often find myself thinking about this, like looking forward in my day and thinking about what character dimensions are typically lacking for me. And if I activated those, how could that transform my day? And what I find is that's kind of like the, you know, using the glasses to look at your world in a different way. What I find is that oftentimes, even if I'm thinking about activating a dimension. So, for example, humility is one of my weaker dimensions. And I'll often go into conversations or presentations where I am trying to activate my humility. But sometimes it's still not strong enough just thinking about it. It still breaks down. Sometimes I still find myself getting defensive and I didn't want to get defensive. And as soon as the meeting's done, I know I've been defensive. So it's something that I'm working on. And that's where, even if we want to activate our character, we start to realize that when it's challenged that this is where we actually have to practice it on a day to day basis. And that was something that came up in Christian's podcast last episode where he said character shouldn't be started in the attack position. You've got to put in the reps and sets so that when the challenge and the pressure hits, you're ready to go. And so I think that's a really interesting kind of stress testing opportunity that tells you, okay, even though I'm thinking about it, I've still got more work to do. 

Bill Furlong

[00.31.20]

Hundred percent. And that it was and so in the example that I gave is, is that and this is before I started working on Virtuosity. If I wasn't and, you know, I'm not quite sure why I thought about it that particular morning. It might have been probably because Mary and I, a couple of years ago, we were working on something or happened to be front of mind. If it's going to be reliably used, it's always going to be there when you need it. It has to be this habit. Just a little quick, just the last thing on that story is that because of wearing this aura ring, I went back afterwards and looked at all of my body metrics, from 4 to 6, while I was awake, my HRV was low, my heart rate was up, my stress was up at 605 and you can actually see it. Is that my heart rate dropped, HRV went up, and my stress levels went down just virtually by thinking about it, by bringing it to the fore. And so if you can actually create, and I should, because it takes effort to actually create the habit of behavior that change in your physiology becomes something which is not just once in a while, it becomes a permanent feature of who you are. 

Corey Crossan

[00.32.26]

That is so interesting. And I actually have a colleague who's interested in looking at, I think it's fMRI or brainwaves or something like that to look at, how does the development of character actually change our physiology? So that would be very interesting to look at.

Bill Furlong

[00.32.40]

That's probably Lucas you're talking about. 

Corey Crossan

[00.32.43]

No. Rachel Sturm, actually, have you met her?

Bill Furlong

[00.32.46]

I have met Rachel, and that's something, fMRI, I think would be absolutely fascinating work because I think it would change it. The other part is, is that I think that because the brain rewires itself, right, there's a neuroplasticity plasticity of the brain. And I think that the practice of character actually rewires your brain. But I would love to see the science that actually supports how it rewires it and how you then foundationally, fundamentally react to the exact same situation in a completely different way. Once you've rewired your brain, you become basically a different person, but now you become the different person that you've always wanted to be, one with enormous strength and character. And the idea that this is available to anyone who's prepared to put the time into it, you don't need to go to the best universities in the world. You think you can live anywhere in the world and you can actually do this. And I think there's a democratization of character and leadership. But again, it's such a powerful aspect of this work. 

Corey Crossan

[00.33.43]

Yeah. And we do know with the neuroplasticity piece that we can change and our brain can be rewired. So I think sometimes when we're introducing people to character, there is sometimes the pushback - the people that are challenged with it sometimes feel like they're not able to change or ready to change. And so just knowing that we can and then actually producing some research on that down the road would be really incredible. 

Bill Furlong

[00.34.09]

And I, you know, so I came to this work in my mid 50s and I know I have changed how I encounter situations is different. And one of the lovely things too is that, you know, I'm experiencing changes in life where I frankly, I wasn't expecting to see much in the way of changing my life. And it's just,  it's just a, it's a wonderful thing to actually encounter. 

Corey Crossan

[00.34.30]

So, yeah. Perfect. On that note, what are some of the insights that you've gained along the way from applying character in your personal and professional life? 

Bill Furlong

[00.34.39]

So the first one is, and I've already sort of touched on it, is that small changes can have an enormous impact on outcomes. I think sometimes we think that big outcomes are the result of big decisions or big changes. And what I'm learning more and more and more is, is that it's that those little micro moments that actually lead to a decision that can have momentous consequences. And that's either in terms of dealing with an issue or taking advantage of an opportunity. I think we sometimes live our lives waiting for the big moment when actually, it's the little moments that carry the vast majority of momentous change, and the potential that lies inside of there that we don't see if I just reach out to a particular person,  that maybe I've been struggling with in terms of, relationship, and that becomes a conscious choice to do that or just even respond in a different way. It opens up so much in the way of possibility. If I react differently in a particular space, if I take an initiative, that I haven't taken before, if I see things I haven't seen before anyway. So one is that small changes have an enormous impact and it's all the time. That's what I love the character work because it really does focus on the micro moments. The second one, we talked about this in the past, but I've had some further thoughts about it recently. The idea that temperance is foundational. I think in the past we talked about temperance being a portal, that the quote that's attributed to Viktor Frankl between stimulus and response is a space and that space is the power to choose our response and in our response lies our growth and our freedom. And so, you know, we think about space a little bit. Right? And so I've always thought about it, Corey kind of like, okay, if I can just give myself like a second or a microsecond or sometimes 5 minutes or 10 minutes, I can just create more space there. I might come up with another alternative, I might come up with a, I'll make a better choice, you know, in the calmness of it. Well, I had a bit of time in actually preparing for a conversation today, and a couple of thoughts I'd like to share was, is that I think it's, in the past, I've thought about it as a cognitive space. I'll get more time to work on the cognitive weighing of the pros and cons, or maybe allowing my imagination to generate a new alternative or something. But the other thing that is really important is, and maybe even more important for me, is actually giving space for your feelings to process, like in that first moment. If you're faced with something, sometimes the thing you're trying to process is not the cognitive start. It's the emotion. And if you give you more space to actually have the emotion, to process the emotion in an almost like a meditative way, process it, let it go. And then now you can get back to actually trying to make the decision in a calmer frame of mind. And so I'm really thinking about that space to process cognitively but also emotionally. And I actually, I think there's a neuroscientist that talks about we're not thinking machines that feel, we are feeling machines that think. And so I think we need to start with that emotional cleansing, if you will, or processing. And then you can dig into it. So I think that space that you're creating is as much for emotion as it is for cognition. And then the second thing is, is that you need to start to engineer space. And that's something that I've been trying to do this year, is create boundaries. I'm only going to take on so much and then things like sleep, diet, exercise, meditation become this, these practices that allow you to support the character that you, the habit that you want to create. And so those are the things I want to share A) the idea of space to feel. And then secondly, space doesn't happen on its own. You got to create this space. You got to engineer that in your life and that, that requires specific decisions. The second idea around,  I, we talk about this a little bit already is that awareness is not enough. It has to become this idea of habit development. And you always have to practice it. And it kind of feels like, the best example for me is, is eating well, you know, you eat well for like, a week and you think to yourself, hey, I've been doing really good. And then, you know, then you just fall off the wagon and, and then you think, oh, like, what did I do that for? And so I think, you know, recognizing and accepting like physical exercise, like a good diet. It just becomes something which if it becomes this habit and that you try and stay on that habit all the time. And the idea of this, you know, and because again, the lift from awareness is so large, sometimes you think that the lift, a lift that big has got to be good enough. But what you discover is, is that it's not good enough. It's actually got to become part of your habits. And these habits are what defines your success or failure. And maybe the last thing in terms of insights and thinking is that, you know, when I was working on the, you know, which dimension of character to pick first, this goes back a couple of years ago. You know, like I'm focusing on Humanity and Temperance, but and so I tended not to think about some of the character strengths. I don't have a problem with Drive. Like, I just think I got a lot of that. And so I, I got enough of it. And so what I discovered is, is that as I've gone into some of those areas of strength, I found that enormously helpful in trying to manage and understand it. So I'll give two examples. One is recently just working on flexibility. And I always thought about flexibility as being open-minded, but I what I didn't know was that this idea of not being defensive and I can be defensive, right. I'm looking to protect my position, etcetera, etcetera. Just having that knowledge of understanding that part of being flexible is not just listening to other ideas, but not, you know, being defensive. Huge impact. And then secondly, around drive is understanding the source of my drive. Because once you understand what the source is, you can start to protect it. And so, you know, what I've learned is, is that don't just focus on strengthening those weaknesses. Like, there's a ton of awareness and opportunity and possibility and learning more about your strengths as well. 

Corey Crossan

[00.40.40]

Yeah, that part has really surprised me because as you know, in the Virtuosity program, we work our way around the wheel. And sometimes when I get to my strengths, like drive, I really see you on that one. It is amazing how much more room there is for growth, how much more nuance there is. And I always joke that by the end of the month, when we're supposed to switch to the new dimension, you've fallen in love with this dimension over the month because you spent so much time on it, and you don't want to go to the new dimension. And then it happens over and over and over again. So yeah, this idea to really pay attention to all those dimensions because there's always room for growth, but there is a lot of insight that you packed in there, and I want to return to a few points, the first one being the small changes piece. And I think what's really interesting about character is how it does live in the micro moments. And it is about these small changes. And sometimes I think that while it's a super practical approach, it's almost like not a gripping enough approach. It's like when people feel motivated to change, they always want to do this big, grand gesture. And we know that these big, grand gestures don't actually sustain themselves. And so I find, I don't know if you found this, but this idea of trying to get people to buy into really small changes that will transform over time has been a bit of a challenge. Have you found that at all? Or do you see it differently? 

Bill Furlong

[00.41.57]

No, I see it the same way. I even see it myself. And, when you first get into the work, and I've been working now on this for maybe ten years or so, is, it's almost like when you think about diet, it's like, oh, it's good enough. Oh, it's good enough. You know what? I'll, eat clean for days on a seven or I'll exercise four days out of seven or whatever it is. And you think, you know, that's good enough and,  you know, that's good enough to get by. I think that, there's two things that propel me forward. One is, as I see the successes. So, for example, knowing that in that particular meeting, I think two diametrically opposed outcomes. And you look at that and you reflect on that and you kind of go, oh, okay, I really need to make sure this becomes a habit because I can't afford the bad outcome. And I think the second thing Corey is, is that it is it really is linked to the sense of at the end of it, to me, it links to a sense of purpose, like, I'm going to do all of this work, but what am I doing it for? Right? And I doing it because of, from a professional perspective, there's things that I really believe in. And this is why I think from a, from a pro athlete perspective, for example, you know, some of the work that Mary’s done with pro athletes, if you are, if you are need because of the strength of the purpose that you have, that you need actually to be the very best that you can be, you have no choice but to make this a habit. And when you then think about the nature of the relationship that you have, the degree to which you want to have a life that's fulfilling and the nature of relationships, you want those to be positive and enduring and sustainable. Everything that you put into character will come back to you ten times over. And not everyone thinks that way. And people have so many different things going on in their lives, right? They're pulled in so many different directions. And so I think,  conversations like ours give people a sense of, there's so much more to discover and to learn and to feel and to achieve and just could be so much better is, I think, is helpful for people to understand what that upper level potential is. And then secondly, if you're someone who's got a, you've got a real strength of character, maybe you're one of the professional fields or you aspire towards professionalism, or you want to be the very best that you could possibly be. You can't not do it. It's kind of like an athlete, and it's like an athlete thinking they can actually eat junk food, can't happen. It can't happen. Alex Ovechkin, I suppose, being the exception. But for the vast majority of people who are looking to achieve at that particular level, it's like it becomes something that you have to have. And the sooner you recognize that, the more success and the faster success you will have in all aspects of your life in the broadest way of thinking about success. But it's a challenge because it's not mathematical, it's two plus two is equal to four. It's like life. There's all kinds of different variables, and there's a certain degree of subjectivity to some outcomes that you have in your life. And there's all of these ideas. I don't I don't know what would have happened had I acted in a different way. And so there's all these outcomes you can't tell, but that's where the evidence starts to come in to say over the long term and the evidence being both anecdotal as well as the quantitative evidence, that's building around this work too. But it takes time. 

Corey Crossan

[00.45.28]

Yeah. And sometimes I feel like when people don't want to commit to something, it's like they aren't really fully convinced that something will really make them feel better. I often use the example of running actually, like everyone knows that running is good for you, but you're not always going to do it. I always encourage people to just try doing it. So if you actually just do the running, like kind of reserve your beliefs, you do running for two weeks, commit to it, you'll be really surprised with how much more energy you have, how much healthier you feel. And so, that was really actually my first introduction to character. I just said, I'm just going to give this my full shot. And after kind of putting my head down and trying it for two weeks and like even after two weeks, I just found it so, so transformational. 

Bill Furlong

[00.46.12]

So I love that. So another example is commitment in the context of improv. So when we're in our improv classes and your hear this all the time is that just commit. You know, some of these situations are just ridiculous situations. And if the class, if the individuals in the class commit, the outcomes are so much different as opposed to the segments where people kind of go, I don't know if this makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm not really into this. I'm not going to, hold back something. And one of the classes that I've done is a, is just recently retired, like a world class professional athlete, but in a class. And here's someone who, because of the level that he reached, which is best in the world level in the sport that he pursued, he came into class and right out of the gate, 100% commitment. And the impact on him and on the class was almost magical. And every time he works in that space in improv and just because of the habit of commitment that he has, it creates outcomes and situations  in the improv. And so I've always noticed in improv, if I've committed to a class like really commit, I'm in, it's a great class. And if I kind of hold back and I'm not feeling it that day, I walk out like, oh, that's kind of lukewarm-ish today, but I have to look no further than the mirror as to, you know, if I'm going to look for a place, it was the commitment piece. Commitment is everything in the concept of making all of this other stuff work. 

Corey Crossan

[00.47.54]

I really like that. I really like that. Yeah, I've heard that commitment is such an important piece in improv. The other piece, there is two other things I want to come back to. The one about temperance being a portal. And I think we talked about this a while ago, and I totally, totally agree with it. And then since then, I've realized that depending on perhaps the context or what I'm focusing on, that there are other dimensions that can be portals for me too. So I think oftentimes, like when I'm in a conversation or whatever it might be, transcendence has started to be a portal for me. This idea of there's an ‘and’ possibility or what could happen here, and it really elevates all my other dimensions. Or sometimes it can be humility. This idea of when I'm feeling stagnant, humility then becomes my portal. So it's been interesting to actually see these different portals kind of, yeah, change over time. 

Bill Furlong

[00.48.46]

Well, I love that Corey, and I love that sense of possibility of multiple portals, because I don't want to get stuck with one, especially one which is on a particularly strong dimension. And I wonder whether or not I feel it because it's a dimension that I really struggle with. And I think that creating that more of that space. So I love that. I think that's fair. I think the, in a specific space that I occupy, I do find that if I just give myself more time for me, the insight I wanted to share was really is the idea of not just processing cognition, but processing emotion. I find I really need to do that because I can have an emotional reaction to something. And if I don't clear that away first, it's not my best. But I love the idea of that and thanks for sharing that idea with multiple portals. 

Corey Crossan

[00.49.31]

And actually, as you've said that, I think because temperance is not very strong for me, and it's this idea that sometimes your strengths can help activate your weaker ones. So like, if my emotions aren't being processed very well, actually activating my transcendence helps regulate or like turn my emotions into something constructive. So this is something I'm just thinking about now, from your insight. So that's pretty cool. 

Bill Furlong

[00.49.54]

Yeah, I find that for me a lot, a lot of times, especially if emotion if I'm, you know, if I'm in a situation or a discussion or conversation for me, humanity, I got to try, and because I do actually have, I think, a sense of empathy for other people. But sometimes that, you know, when you're in a, when you're arguing a point or you're pushing a position or you're trying to achieve an outcome, my empathy can, can narrow a little bit. And, so I find that that's really important too. But yeah, no, I, I yeah, I completely agree with you Corey. It really is across all the different dimensions and having them as, as we've talked about, and the way the theory works is that they're so interconnected and so interdependent. Yeah. No, I fully agree. 

Corey Crossan

[00.50.36]

And the last point I wanted to come back to was the context and designing systems. And of course, I love this idea. I think I've shared with you before James Clear's work, in his book Atomic Habits, where he talks about, we don't rise to the level of our goals, we fall to the level of our systems. And we've really been working on that a lot. It's embedded into Virtuosity, too, where we have these systems that either support or inhibit our character. And I think what's been really interesting looking into the systems work is how much more agency we have in changing our context to better support our character development. So as you're sharing that insight, that really resonated with me. 

Bill Furlong

[00.51.14]

Well thanks, Corey. And I do think, by the way, that our, I seem to recall, I think this is right, is that I think we underestimate the ability to which we can actually affect our own context. So, you're sitting in a room, something happens, everyone, because they're uncomfortable, sits quietly and embarrassed on their hands, and the moment passes and nothing happens. One person says what most people are thinking, changes the context materially. I think you hear a lot of the times, especially in the times we're living in, is what can I do? What can I do? What can I do? The answer is, is you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised how much one person could do. Maybe one of my favorite books, The Power of One, by Bryce Courtney, I think that's right, just talks about how one person can change so much. And I think for good or for bad, by the way. And I think that it's, I think we have an enormous amount of power to manage context and to create the context that we want to live in, where we and others can thrive is not to be underestimated. And I think, requires an enormous amount of judgment to do that. And of course, the role of judgment would be in the habits of character. 

Corey Crossan

[00.52.31]

Yeah. And even just going back to your story about the athlete coming into improv and just getting that full commitment and, you know, enabling everyone else to give that full commitment. It's a perfect example. 

Bill Furlong

[00.52.42]

Yeah. Okay. It was great. I can still see in my mind when you first rolled in and it was like, whoa, this guy is full on. And he was, and he's great. 

Corey Crossan

[00.52.51]

Yeah. That's so awesome. Okay, so as we're getting towards the end of our time here, the question, the closing question I always ask or guests is about the character quotient. So for the listeners, if they're new, what the character quotient is, is it something that Mary and I had worked on to bring greater awareness to what people are doing in terms of impact around character. And so we've created three categories around character awareness, character development and character application in organizations. And it's actually a scale, a set of questions that people can take to measure their character quotient. Of course, the focus here is to help people imagine what more they can be doing. So I've asked you to take it, and I'm curious to think about, or to hear about, the different areas - so awareness, development, and application. What were your stronger areas and what are the areas you're working on to improve? 

Bill Furlong

[00.53.44]

Well, after being in this area for ten years, if I said my awareness was poor then you know, well, what have you been doing? So my awareness, I would characterize this as I give myself in the context of, kind of like an A minus. And the reason why I would, even though I've been sort of working at this, you know, directly and indirectly for the last ten years, I just find that the more you learn, the more you realize you actually have to learn. So I'll give myself an A minus on that. On the development, I give myself an A minus on that, but for only one reason. That's because I'm involved with you, with Virtuosity. If I did not have Virtuosity, I would find it very hard to give myself anything more than a D, because I wouldn't have a structure. It would get pushed out of the way by other things that happen day in, day out. And so that's um, that's a game changer for me. In terms of development, I don't know how I would do it otherwise. It would be kind of haphazard, informal, you know, kind of whenever I could and probably would just, what I needed most would be the times when I would actually abandon it, you know. So that's that. In terms of the application, I mean, that's when I first got involved at Ivey, really, my focus was really on outreach and trying to apply things I would probably give myself, like, I don't know, like a C, and it's probably not for lack of effort, but it's just, it's a, you know, my focus is really, you know, through our character associates. It's really around getting associations to embrace this and take it on in a broader way. And we've had some success in that regard, but it's, you know, organizations, it's not like we're doing something simple here. When you introduce character, the concept of character into an organization is something which has to be managed thoughtfully and deliberately and intentionally, and I would even argue strategically. And so, that takes forethought and commitment. And organizations, especially larger ones, have a million things going on. At the same time, they've also got, you know, a direction in terms of culture that they've already had. And so, you know, you've got to be careful when you introduce something like this, because if it's done incorrectly, it's probably worse than doing it at all. And so that's a lot of my time, effort, thought and my aspirations and ambitions and dreams are really inside of that space. So I'd give myself a C, but I'd say I'm working towards an A. 

Corey Crossan

[00.56.16]

Mhm. Oh that's awesome. It's uh yeah. When you give that full effort and it's just not coming to fruition, it's frustrating, but it will come. 

Bill Furlong

[00.56.26]

Yeah. And I've been in this space before. When I was in earlier in my career, I was one of the, sort of first, and that's what I'd say, early pioneers and securitization in Canada back in the early 90s, when I discovered was is it takes time and you tend to work from you know, if you think about a, if you think about a bell curve, you work from both ends to the middle, and the both ends are the people who really have suffered an issue around, back in the 90s, someone who really needed financing and securitization was a way to get it. And the equivalent here would be is that an organization that has struggled with conducting culture, and so they look at character as a way to get it. To answer that question, or the other hand, is organizations that that were really good at financing understood that they were great at structure transactions. And so, okay, securitization is just another flavor of that. And the equivalent here would be organizations that they completely get character that's aligned with their culture. And so they get it. And my sense is, is without a fill in from the, from the tails to the center. And so it takes time. And so I'm fairly patient with that kind of stuff and recognize there's a process that's going to have to happen. And the community of practice that we're developing alongside of everything that's getting done, is a really important part of creating that critical mass.

Corey Crossan

[00.57.47]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So that was my last question for you, but I wanted to make sure that we've talked about everything that you wanted to cover, insights that you wanted to share. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you'd like to share before we close things off today?

Bill Furlong

[00.58.05]

Maybe just really quickly,  around culture and how character and culture are linked. I think organizations have struggled in the past with culture because they find it hard to understand. It's this amorphous, nebulous, almost subjective thing. When you think about your culture in the context of character, you've got a definition of it and the work that you and Mary have done to take, defining character from the individual to the organization is really important. And the second piece of culture is, okay, once you actually figure out the culture that you want, like, well, how do I get there? And as we sort of referred to earlier, how do you get there if you don't train people, you actually have to create habits of behavior that are consistent with the habits of the virtuous habits of character, which will then create a culture that you know, that we all want. And then lastly is then, even when organizations start to make changes, they can actually keep track of them. And usually they don't know their culture has gone off track until it's frankly too late and it's now showing up in the numbers. And so again, I think Virtuosity as a tool that can actually be used in real time to start to monitor and measure that not only real time, but also within an organization. So I think that to the extent listeners are, your audience listening in today, to think about character and culture? There's such an enormous potential for that. And you and I have an article coming out, I think, this summer that goes into that in a great deal more detail. But that's about it. Yeah. Otherwise it's been a delight to talk about all of these different things and to share, you know, what we've shared in the past, but also some of these insights and some of those particular stories, it's been a joy. 

Corey Crossan

[00.59.36]

Yeah, it's I mean, like I said earlier, we get to chat every week, but I've even learned some new insights from you through this episode, and I am so excited for the listeners to get to learn from you too. So thanks so much for joining us, Bill.

Bill Furlong

[00.59.48]

It's been a pleasure, Corey. Thank you so much for doing all of this work that you do. It's so important. 

Corey Crossan

[00.59.55]

You have just finished another episode from the Virtuosity podcast. If you have any questions and want to connect, please reach out to me at corey@virtuositycharacter.ca. I'm also on LinkedIn, so let's connect. As always, thank you so much for listening. Bye for now.